So Key is standing by Parata...

[Bob Kane]

Exactly! They should strike. But with people like you, who undervalue their work anyway, it's likely to do them more damage. They already have the National government against them, the last thing the mentors of our country's future needs is it's people against them too.

The teachers are on a hiding to nothing over this.
To continue their approach doesn't help their salary payments (or mis-payments).
They should change their approach with is what I've been advocating.
The response from many is 'why should they?'.
Ok, don't change anything.
What's going to happen?

[Bob Kane]

As for Bob Kane and his views on this - I'm not sure what axe he has to grind. Maybe he was told off by a teacher once and hasn't gotten over it?
But the old system worked, the new doesn't, the teachers didn't design or implement the change so how can they be to blame.
And why should they be the ones to fix it?
As for his view that it is the administrators to blame - the teachers don't employ them!
Schools do, and they are generally the same ones that used the old system to good effect.

The old system is dead.
To get paid today the teachers need to:
1. Fill out a time sheet correctly. I gather quite a few have difficulty doing this. Why?
2. Have the time sheet entered correctly into the system. This seems to be a difficult task as well.
3. Have the entered data checked and authorised. This also seems to be a difficult task.
If errors are being made at each step then I would expect some problems with the teachers pay.
It's a bit hard to blame Talent2/Novopay or the national govt for these types of errors.

[Learning]

Please pardon my ignorance. Which three subjects are the big three?

Maths, reading and writing. No one will dispute that these are extremely important subjects but they should not be the only subjects.

[Wayne]

The teachers are on a hiding to nothing over this.
To continue their approach doesn't help their salary payments (or mis-payments).
They should change their approach with is what I've been advocating.

Sorry but what is the teachers approach and how should it change?

[Perry]

Please pardon my ignorance. Which three subjects are the big three?

Maths, reading and writing. No one will dispute that these are extremely important subjects but they should not be the only subjects.

Oh. That's good they're still in fashion and cultural sensitivity
or basket weaving hadn't gained positions in the big three.

[Davo36]

What many people fail to realise is that the vast majority of teachers are passionate and care deeply for their students learning.

you need professionals who know what they are doing. And most teachers are just that.

This is not what I remember from my school. The teachers were a bunch of useless old hacks for the main part. Once the school in Manurewa, South Auckland started going downhill, things rapidly deteriorated.

Also, I have a friend who's a teacher. The bell rings at 3:00. He meets me at a local sports club at 3:10. They do the least amount of work possible.

[Bob Kane]

Sorry but what is the teachers approach and how should it change?

It's their complex employment contract that is causing the problem.
They should offer to simplify it - or indicate they would consider a simpler payment calculation.
So far they have refused to consider such a step.
That's how I see it as reported in the media.
I'm not suggesting the teachers should get a pay-cut.
I would expect they would get the same money as they get now - only using a very simple method of calculation.
I would then expect all their payment errors to disappear.
This would also allow them to use any payroll system available on the market which could be a useful bargaining point.

[artemis]

The old system is dead.
To get paid today the teachers need to:
1. Fill out a time sheet correctly. I gather quite a few have difficulty doing this. Why?
2. Have the time sheet entered correctly into the system. This seems to be a difficult task as well.
3. Have the entered data checked and authorised. This also seems to be a difficult task.
If errors are being made at each step then I would expect some problems with the teachers pay.
It's a bit hard to blame Talent2/Novopay or the national govt for these types of errors.

Don't disagree, but sounds like there is insufficient validation within Novopay. I would hope that the most common errors are being identified and checks built in to the system. The 'system' being Novopay itself but also the business processes around it.

Don't hold your breath for co-operation from teacher unions under the current government. Betcha if we had a Labour government the unions would be largely silent on this issue.

[eri]

Finland seems to lead most educational indexes

Read this morning that out of 2500 applications for teachers

They accept only 120

They've had a HUGE educational overhaul

I wonder how the older teachers handled it...

This year epsom girls required their first year students to have portable computers for classes

But apparently just up the road

Auckland boys grammar is still strongly keeping computers out of the classroom???

[Perry]

While visiting a museum in Melbourne, I spoke to a teacher of
a class of High School students doing research of some sort.
All had iPads. All were issued by the school. All had to be given
back when leaving school. All class and project/home assign-
ments were issued to the iPads via WiFi. The teacher said
that he marked all assignments on his iPad, that were sub-
mitted by students from their iPads, via WiFi.

As the concept of 'exercise books' seems to have fled in the
face of technology, I wonder if 'text books' are now on their
way out, too?

[eri]

i was in melb. in 1992

when i think the first girl's high school started all classes by computers

24 years later

parts of auckland follow...

all this stuff takes money

and i'm not sure we can afford 1st world systems

on 2nd world salaries and productivity

[Bob Kane]

Don't hold your breath for co-operation from teacher unions under the current government. Betcha if we had a Labour government the unions would be largely silent on this issue.

Which is probably what is behind the teachers running to the media all the time.
If you read that recent report you'd note that it appears to be just one school with a lot of problems.
What's the bet that principal set up/allowed those errors in order to push Novopay back into the headlines?
I'd also bet that the principal has had a bollocking and been told to smarten up if she wants to stay on as principal.

"In regards to Waitaha School, the Ministry has made contact with the principal yesterday and today to help resolve all its outstanding issues and has offered further assistance."

[Learning]

Which is probably what is behind the teachers running to the media all the time.
If you read that recent report you'd note that it appears to be just one school with a lot of problems.
What's the bet that principal set up/allowed those errors in order to push Novopay back into the headlines?
I'd also bet that the principal has had a bollocking and been told to smarten up if she wants to stay on as principal.

How you got to that conclusion based on the whole article is completely mind boggling. Did you just skip over the whole middle portion?

"A survey of 714 principals found that about six staff per school were paid incorrectly each round, and 66.3 per cent still had unresolved problems from last year.There were 4220 people paid incorrectly based on information from 670 principals alone.
"We always expect the first pay round of the year to be a bit challenging but this error rate is way beyond anything we imagined."
Minister Responsible for Novopay Steven Joyce said complaints in the latest pay period related to .69 per cent of staff across the country. There were 234 staff not paid, 107 overpaid, and 175 underpaid - from 11 per cent of schools in the payroll system."


So why has the Ministry singled out this school? Noisy wheel syndrome- Complain the loudest and get attention first.

I would agree with you Bob that the teachers pay is complicated but Torrent 2 knew that when they accepted the job. The previous Datacom system had been stable for 8 years. National considered it out dated and decided to throw away the working and spend $182million on a Novopay system. I don't understand how you can blame teachers complicated pay when that hasn't changed in years. If you hired a builder to build you an unusual house and then two months later he gives you a garden shed why would you keep throwing more money at him? National should have gone back to Datacom when they were given a shed. At least they understood the job unlike Torrent2.

[artemis]

..... ]So why has the Ministry singled out this school? Noisy wheel syndrome- Complain the loudest and get attention first. [/FONT][/SIZE] I would agree with you Bob that the teachers pay is complicated but Torrent 2 knew that when they accepted the job. The previous Datacom system had been stable for 8 years. National considered it out dated and decided to throw away the working and spend $182million on a Novopay system. I don't understand how you can blame teachers complicated pay when that hasn't changed in years. If you hired a builder to build you a house and then two months later he gives you a garden shed why would you keep throwing more money at him? National should have gone back to Datacom when they were given a shed. At least they understood the job unlike Torrent2.

The principal of Waitaha School does not say precisely how many errors there were in the school payroll, but there are indications it was more than usual (2 pages of errors this year seems a lot for a school with 30 staff). We would have a better idea if the principal said how many errors the school had, what the cause was, which were serious and which less so. Or whether the admin person actually knew what they were doing (seems maybe not). Meantime, it is really mainly fluff so, Learning, cannot blame commenters for making assumptions.

If I were the principal I would not be too keen on the world knowing that the Min of Ed was coming in to 'help'. Head Office offering help is really not a good look.

[Learning]

Or whether the admin person actually knew what they were doing (seems maybe not). Meantime, it is really mainly fluff so, Learning, cannot blame commenters for making assumptions.

If I were the principal I would not be too keen on the world knowing that the Min of Ed was coming in to 'help'. Head Office offering help is really not a good look.

The new assumption is that it's all of a sudden it's the schools admin making the mistakes. This is false. The teachers aren't doing anything different to what they have been doing for the past 10 years. The first pay period of each year is more complicated than the rest of the year. Something that Torrent2 haven't managed to grasp yet.- The new year brings in a huge lump of changes in individuals pay and allowances. A new school year is full of new staff contracts. Teachers qualifying for new allowances due to time in service, moving location or changing roles.

It took Datacom a couple years to get their head around the massive lump of extra work required at the beginning of each year too but for the 8 years previous to Novopay, they had it about right.

Torrent2 doesn't understand the animal they are trying to build the cage for. (That's a pretty good analogy. The teachers union is kind of like a wild animal. )