Politics, Intrigue, Referenda & Economics

[Wayne]

Almost all homosexuals both men & women have also had partners of the opposite sex. Many have offspring as a result of those relationships.

I call bull on that one.
Evidence?
Many homosexual people have tried to be straight, probably because that is what society expected of them.
They found they weren't straight and the relationship didn't work.
Also, I was commenting to your assertion that "Exclusive homosexuality is extremenly rare"
Having tried being straight is not the same as being bisexual!
After trying to be straight they revert to 'exclusive homosexuality'.

[Perry]

Interesting

Please edit it to say "antiquated" if you prefer

Then what other historical norms (which became the basis of general law) should
we similarly label and consign to antiquity, I wonder?

Thou shalt not kill?
Thou shalt not steal?
Thou shalt not bear false witness . . .

Are they antiquated, all?

If not, as in only some are antiquated and some not, which shall be ditched and
which retained? And who shall decide?

Having said that, I wouldn't want to live under strict Islamic law... but then I think strict Christian law would be just as bad.

Thankfully, we're moving away from religion as a basis for our decision-making.

Seems to me to be a big difference between decision-making and law-making.

[mrsaneperson]

When my son was born in 1985 I filled out his baby album and noted in it (we were living offshore) that David Lange was PM and that the Homosexual Law reform bill had just been passed. Having just given birth to our first son I wonder what the possible effect might be on him and his generation when he grew up.
Fast forward 29 years and high schools have rainbow rooms so the confused teenagers have a retreat from the taunts of the heterosexual kids.
It's cool to be bi, lesbian and homosexual, why? Because it is accepted as the norm. No longer are people shunned or victimised because of their being gay.
If that legislation hadn't come into effect NZ would probably be a different place to what it is now.
Politicians made that decision back in 1985 and in doing so have probably changed the thinking of many a young teenager.
For that reason I believe that binding referendums are necessary. At the time the changes favoured a huge minority.

Rainbow rooms in schools are not a retreat but a promotion & encouragement of "we are different" divisiveness. If we are different does that make us normal?
I hear what you're saying that back in the 80's being gay mean't you were often bullied - that was wrong - i'm glad those days are long gone..
But now we've come full circle in promoting the whole gay thing. And obsession with making it a normality. Gay activists are trying to reclaim the word normal & re-invent it. They dont need to do so.We dont need to make something "normal" in order for it to be accepted. Is it normal to be a Muslim, Jew or any minority faith resident in NZ? No ,because there numbers do not reflect a majority living here..Do we still accept other religions into our community even though we dont agree with the doctrines they follow? Yes. Do we agree with their beliefs ? No.But that does not make us anti-Jew ,anti-Muslim etc..
It isnt normal to be gay, if it was then why is demap above stating that almost all homosexuals have experienced child abuse from his work involving those people? This is also backed up by former America Gay rights activist & lesbian Tammy Bruce in her book "The death of right & wrong". Of the 1000's of gay men & women she knew & interviewed almost every single one had experienced some form of child abuse.
By making something normal when it isnt we are just putting a disguise on it.

[mrsaneperson]

I call bull on that one.
Evidence?
Many homosexual people have tried to be straight, probably because that is what society expected of them.
They found they weren't straight and the relationship didn't work.
Also, I was commenting to your assertion that "Exclusive homosexuality is extremenly rare"
Having tried being straight is not the same as being bisexual!
After trying to be straight they revert to 'exclusive homosexuality'.

You're probably right on the "exclusive homosexuality is extremely rare", retraction then, that applies to the animal kingdom.
But dont forget there are many variables, not one shoe size fits all situations.One example i know of where offspring have resulted from a heterosexual relationship ,then when the relationship disintegrated were given up for adoption to a Lesbian couple.The first openly gay man appointed as a NZ minister, MP Chris Carter did this a few years ago.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10423319

[Wayne]

You're probably right on the "exclusive homosexuality is extremely rare", retraction then, that applies to the animal kingdom.
But dont forget there are many variables, not one shoe size fits all situations.One example i know of where offspring have resulted from a heterosexual relationship ,then when the relationship disintegrated were given up for adoption to a Lesbian couple.The first openly gay man appointed as a NZ minister, MP Chris Carter did this a few years ago.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10423319

While that may be try it doesn't support the statement that
Almost all homosexuals both men & women have also had partners of the opposite sex. Many have offspring as a result of those relationships
Which you proclaimed back in post 250.
I still call bull!

Also can't work out how Chris Carter fits with this?

[Meehole]

Rainbow rooms in schools are not a retreat but a promotion & encouragement of "we are different" divisiveness. If we are different does that make us normal?
I hear what you're saying that back in the 80's being gay mean't you were often bullied - that was wrong - i'm glad those days are long gone..
But now we've come full circle in promoting the whole gay thing. And obsession with making it a normality. Gay activists are trying to reclaim the word normal & re-invent it. They dont need to do so.We dont need to make something "normal" in order for it to be accepted. Is it normal to be a Muslim, Jew or any minority faith resident in NZ? No ,because there numbers do not reflect a majority living here..Do we still accept other religions into our community even though we dont agree with the doctrines they follow? Yes. Do we agree with their beliefs ? No.But that does not make us anti-Jew ,anti-Muslim etc..
It isnt normal to be gay, if it was then why is demap above stating that almost all homosexuals have experienced child abuse from his work involving those people? This is also backed up by former America Gay rights activist & lesbian Tammy Bruce in her book "The death of right & wrong". Of the 1000's of gay men & women she knew & interviewed almost every single one had experienced some form of child abuse.
By making something normal when it isnt we are just putting a disguise on it.

I didn't say that in the 80's being gay meant you were bullied, I said that my son was born in 85 and the homosexual law reform bill had passed and I wondered what affect it would have on him growing up in a society where it was ok to be homosexual? Subsequently that same son has 4 very good 'mates' (that he knows of) that are homosexual.
I have no idea if in the 80's they were bullied, I knew a couple of lesbians and they weren't bullied. Incidentally one of those was married had a child then jumped the fence.
Look you want to believe only half of what you read and hear, I have no idea who Tammy Bruce is and how she came about the material for her book. For all we know she may have advertised for homosexuals and lesbians that been abused as children to participate in a study that would form part of her book. Perfect strike rate and well manipulated to justify her reasoning's?

[mrsaneperson]

Chris Carter was an example of one of those relationships that went both ways ,offspring resulted. Many homosexual men have had physical relationships with a woman is true, it may not be as fulfilling for them but to label them as exclusively homosexual is wrong. Freddy Mercury & Elton John are examples. Elton was married to a woman back in the 80's ,sure it didnt work out & it wasn't for him .But he still had a physical sexual relationship going on. How many examples do you want there are dozens.
There are few exclusivitys. The gay friends i have also dont confine themselves to being exclusively gay.
Bowie tried homosexuality too for a while back in the 70s ,he doesnt like to talk about it now,and sees it as a darker experimental past.

[Wayne]

Chris Carter was an example of one of those relationships that went both ways ,offspring resulted. Many homosexual men have had physical relationships with a woman is true, it may not be as fulfilling for them but to label them as exclusively homosexual is wrong. Freddy Mercury & Elton John are examples. Elton was married to a woman back in the 80's ,sure it didnt work out & it wasn't for him .But he still had a physical sexual relationship going on. How many examples do you want there are dozens.
There are few exclusivitys. The gay friends i have also dont confine themselves to being exclusively gay.
Bowie tried homosexuality too for a while back in the 70s ,he doesnt like to talk about it now,and sees it as a darker experimental past.

I agree that there are people who went one way and found it didn't work for them.
They then went the other way and stayed there (exclusive).
Some swing both ways (Freddy and Elton) and are called bi-sexual.
By saying that there are few who are exclusive then you are saying that bi-sexuality predominates (within the gay community).
I don't believe you!

Because a person changed their mind doesn't mean they are not exclusive now!

[mrsaneperson]

I didn't say that in the 80's being gay meant you were bullied, I said that my son was born in 85 and the homosexual law reform bill had passed and I wondered what affect it would have on him growing up in a society where it was ok to be homosexual? Subsequently that same son has 4 very good 'mates' (that he knows of) that are homosexual.
I have no idea if in the 80's they were bullied, I knew a couple of lesbians and they weren't bullied. Incidentally one of those was married had a child then jumped the fence.
Look you want to believe only half of what you read and hear, I have no idea who Tammy Bruce is and how she came about the material for her book. For all we know she may have advertised for homosexuals and lesbians that been abused as children to participate in a study that would form part of her book. Perfect strike rate and well manipulated to justify her reasoning's?

No she didn't advertise for them. She knew them personally, many of them were friends. She is a very well known staunch leading activist of gay rights in America but began to see that it was actually working against the gay people it claimed to be representing. Exactly the same as Maori activism in NZ. No good for Maori & no good for anyone except for a few wealthy tribal elitists. Promoting division not unity.
If you want to help people you have to tell them the truth even though they may not want to hear it. Thats why there is so much hatred against anyone speaking out against gay activism, because there is a dogmatic belief that if you dont support & promote all gay causes & activism then you must somehow be against that group. Look what happened to Colin Craig he was one of the very few to speak out against gay marriage and he was personally ridiculed on National TV Seven Sharp & condemned in every way posible by the media in general including gay rights spokesperson Alison Mau who had recently come out as a lesbian after being married to Simon Dallow for many years.

The greater cause of good is not being served for anyone.

[mrsaneperson]

Because a person changed their mind doesn't mean they are not exclusive now!

You say they changed their mind. But really did they change their mind or was it because the heterosexual relationship they were in had so many failings they couldnt see past that & just didnt want to try another person of the opposite sex again. A lot of it is tied up in psychology. Put someone with a different person & different environment that caters for their sexual & emotional needs and those are variables that may or may not work to maintain a heterosexual relationship. I have seen plenty of examples of this. Thats why again i say there is no one shoe size that fits all.
We are all different, we are all variable to some degree.

[Wayne]

Thats why again i say there is no one shoe size that fits all.
We are all different, we are all variable to some degree.

Yet you are happy to assert
Almost all homosexuals both men & women have also had partners of the opposite sex. Many have offspring as a result of those relationships.
and
Exclusive homosexuality is extremenly rare
Most intriguing.

[mrsaneperson]

I see that as supporting the statement that there are "many variables" rather than not supporting it. Perhaps it also points that each & everyone of us has some same sex attraction to different measurable finite degrees .Given an environment with the right circumstances & variables this could in effect switch us over.

I dont believe in race or that people are inherently different solely based on the colour of their skin. There is only one race ,the Human race. If we could get back to basic understanding of that im sure the world would be much more peaceful & united as a result.

[Wayne]

I see that as supporting the statement that there are "many variables" rather than not supporting it. Perhaps it also points that each & everyone of us has some same sex attraction to different measurable finite degrees .Given an environment with the right circumstances & variables this could in effect switch us over.

Goes back to your arguement that people are 'turned' gay rather than 'born' gay doesn't it?
You stick with that if it makes you feel better.

[mrsaneperson]

Theres a bit of both .I dont buy into the notion of a "gay gene" as such but like i said a measurable finite same sex attraction in varying degrees existing in all of us which can be activated under the right circumstances. This would explain the much higher number of bisexuality.
I dont need to feel better about it. Its what i've observed & read .If someone repeats a lie often enough it becomes the truth for many and that is the same process used by gay activists and maori activists. Once you stop questioning Wayne you become wrapped up in acceptance of the agenda mantra.Unable to question . This is exactly how religious persuasions work.
Now the drum banging is exactly that; a rise to dissension and a rise to quell anyone speaking out against the opinion of any organisation that has duped the public into believing it as fact.

[Meehole]

I'm out! Getting a headache from reading and way too complicated...