Politics, Intrigue, Referenda & Economics

[drelly]

Victorian beliefs? I had always understood that laws
(plus the consequential prejudices and discrimination)
against homosexuality were a by-product of the
Judeo-Xtian religion's hierarchy's influence on politicians
who made those laws. And much the same for Islam.

Please edit it to say "antiquated" if you prefer

[Damap]

The problem is those "antiquated" rules have worked for 6000 years.
When societies move away from them, EG: radical islam then society devolves.
In the case of Islam:

They're not happy in Gaza ..
They're not happy in Egypt .....
They're not happy in Libya ....
They're not happy in Morocco .....
They're not happy in Iran ......
They're not happy in Iraq .....
They're not happy in Yemen ......
They're not happy in Afghanistan ....
They're not happy in Pakistan .....
They're not happy in Syria ....
They're not happy in Lebanon .....
SO, WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY?
They're happy in Australia ..
They're happy in Canada ..
They're happy in New Zealand ....
They're happy in France ...
They're happy in Italy ........
They're happy in Germany ...
They're happy in Sweden ........
They're happy in the USA ...
They're happy in Norway .......
They're happy in Holland ....
They're happy in Denmark ......
Basically, they're happy in every country that is not Muslim
and unhappy in
every country that is!
AND WHO DO THEY BLAME?
Not Islam.
Not their leadership.
Not themselves..
THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!
AND THEN; They want to change those countries to be like....
THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!

[drelly]

The problem is those "antiquated" rules have worked for 6000 years.
When societies move away from them, EG: radical islam then society devolves.
In the case of Islam:

They're not happy in Gaza ..
They're not happy in Egypt .....
They're not happy in Libya ....
They're not happy in Morocco .....
They're not happy in Iran ......
They're not happy in Iraq .....
They're not happy in Yemen ......
They're not happy in Afghanistan ....
They're not happy in Pakistan .....
They're not happy in Syria ....
They're not happy in Lebanon .....
SO, WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY?
They're happy in Australia ..
They're happy in Canada ..
They're happy in New Zealand ....
They're happy in France ...
They're happy in Italy ........
They're happy in Germany ...
They're happy in Sweden ........
They're happy in the USA ...
They're happy in Norway .......
They're happy in Holland ....
They're happy in Denmark ......
Basically, they're happy in every country that is not Muslim
and unhappy in
every country that is!
AND WHO DO THEY BLAME?
Not Islam.
Not their leadership.
Not themselves..
THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!
AND THEN; They want to change those countries to be like....
THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!

In your list of happy countries... how many times has an Islamic army invaded them in say... the last couple of hundred years?

[Damap]

Well the USA is the obvious one but they are so busy in Indonesia and the middle east, Pakistan etc. massacring people that they are only now setting their sights on the west. Which has nothing to do with the thread BTW.

[drelly]

I'm just saying that in the 19/20th centuries, the West has had considerable economic and military control over the middle east and probably hasn't assisted in their happiness. Having said that, I wouldn't want to live under strict Islamic law... but then I think strict Christian law would be just as bad.

[Damap]

Well Christian law is pretty much what you live under. You mean religious or legalistic religious law, which would be horrible yes. I have lived in 2 muslim countries. Even moderate islam is horrible to live under. Racism and abuse of women is built into its culture.

[eri]

we are now about 1450 in the muslim calendar

in 1450AD europe suffered the spanish inquisition

before that the crusaders went around the middle east storming cities and killing people in the name of christ

for most of islam's history it has been very tolerant of other cultures and religions

esp. tolerant of judaism for hundreds of years

for centuries also led the world in science + mathematics

Arabic numerals or Hindu-Arabic numerals^[1][2] or Indo-Arabic numerals^[3] are the ten digits: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. They are the most common symbolic representation of numbers in the world today.

unfortunately certain branches of islam can't see a way forward

are a little lost

and are seeking a rebirth by wallowing in the blood of the past

unfortunately a well worn trail

through the world and history

[drelly]

Well Christian law is pretty much what you live under. You mean religious or legalistic religious law, which would be horrible yes. I have lived in 2 muslim countries. Even moderate islam is horrible to live under. Racism and abuse of women is built into its culture.

Odd really, considering how much more advanced the East was compared to the West over 1000 years ago. There's a guy called Jared Diamond who writes about societies and why they fail or succeed. Pretty good reading. Thankfully, we're moving away from religion as a basis for our decision-making.

[Damap]

Thats mostly due to the huns and the goths. It was fighting that slowed the development in the west basically. They were busier staying alive rather than doing R and D :-)

[mrsaneperson]

I will let the 2 people I work with who are exclusive that they are rare.
I'm sure they will be pleased to know they are so special.

Almost all homosexuals both men & women have also had partners of the opposite sex. Many have offspring as a result of those relationships.

[mrsaneperson]

I'm just saying that in the 19/20th centuries, the West has had considerable economic and military control over the middle east and probably hasn't assisted in their happiness. Having said that, I wouldn't want to live under strict Islamic law... but then I think strict Christian law would be just as bad.

You'd be very wrong .

Strict Christian law? Quakers? Very small sect & confined mainly to certain American states.Against but non -violent to others religious beliefs.

Strict Muslim law ? Sharia law .Practice is widespread in many countries. Does have far more infringements placed on liberty particularly against women ; homosexuality carries the Death penalty . Violence & hatred against others religious beliefs ie 911,ISIS ,Al-Queda etc

[Damap]

Just for the sake of accuracy your notion that almost all gays are or have been Bi or straight is absolute complete nonsense.
Almost all gays have been sexually abused. In fact in all my years of working with gays I am yet to ever meet one who was not abused but what you said Mrsane, is twaddle.

[mrsaneperson]

I'll repeat myself again because (as usual) you conveniently ignored the obvious. There is no such thing as a "gay lifestyle". Is there a "black lifestyle"? Of course not. You're using small-minded labels to justify looking down your nose at people you don't know. Your "research" (which I have read through your links) is generally inclined toward denigration of gay people by writers who have the same fear of moving away from Victorian beliefs that you have.

We won't be having any more discussion as I'm going to add you to my ignore list. Hopefully, this will mean that you'll have less opportunity to spout toxic, hateful, backward-thinking rubbish that poisons society more than any of the things you're so afraid of.

Thats great! I look forward to being added . "Gay lifestyle" although a stereotype you need to read the book by Tammy Bruce a former top ranking gay activist to enlighten yourself as i havent time to print whole tracts from the book here for your benefit.Hire from the library or You can buy your own copy here:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Death-Right-Wrong-Exposing/dp/1400052947

Denigration haha far from it.It is you that is actually denigrating yourself and those "special interest groups" you claim to support in exactly the same way that radical Maori activism is destroying its own people. Exactly the same way the Labour party has disintegrated itself.The only toxicity is your own & you're actually creating your own label & stamping it over everyone elses.

[mrsaneperson]

Just for the sake of accuracy your notion that almost all gays are or have been Bi or straight is absolute complete nonsense.
Almost all gays have been sexually abused. In fact in all my years of working with gays I am yet to ever meet one who was not abused but what you said Mrsane, is twaddle.

Damap if you work with gays ,what sort of work do you do?
All gays you have worked with have been abused ,that also concurs with former gay activist Tammy Bruces book the death of right & wrong:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Death-Right-Wrong-Exposing/dp/1400052947

Just going off the homosexual people i know personally & the many that have been public in the media the vast majority of them have also had straight relationships.

[Meehole]

When my son was born in 1985 I filled out his baby album and noted in it (we were living offshore) that David Lange was PM and that the Homosexual Law reform bill had just been passed. Having just given birth to our first son I wonder what the possible effect might be on him and his generation when he grew up.
Fast forward 29 years and high schools have rainbow rooms so the confused teenagers have a retreat from the taunts of the heterosexual kids.
It's cool to be bi, lesbian and homosexual, why? Because it is accepted as the norm. No longer are people shunned or victimised because of their being gay.
If that legislation hadn't come into effect NZ would probably be a different place to what it is now.
Politicians made that decision back in 1985 and in doing so have probably changed the thinking of many a young teenager.
For that reason I believe that binding referendums are necessary. At the time the changes favoured a huge minority.