So Key is standing by Parata...

[Maccachic]

The kids I see walking around the street don't read, can't spell and can't count. And quite a few can't get jobs.
So teachers are 'shaping the minds'?
I suppose Julie Andrews was quite a role model but current school teachers need to be held to account for their performance.

.

What about the parents responsibility in this? Seeing as they are away from School more than they are at School. It comes down to the blame someone else and take no responsibility for myself attitude that is so common these days.

[Wayne]

It's easier to blame the teachers. Lazy, feckless lot they are with all their holidays and 6 hour work day (sarcasm). Bob never learnt anything from the teachers - taught himself all he knows.

[Bob Kane]

I think I said it in an earlier post - a techie term = 'garbage in, garbage out'. If the data going in is not good - what comes out will be equally bad.

That is often the case.
But with Novopay they have been forced to extensively modify a package to an almost impossible degree of complexity.
Even if the school administrators do everything right, you can get a new techie term: 'quality in, garbage out'.

[Bob Kane]

It's easier to blame the teachers. Lazy, feckless lot they are with all their holidays and 6 hour work day (sarcasm). Bob never learnt anything from the teachers - taught himself all he knows.

You're still struggling with the concept that the teachers may be responsible for their problems.

[Wayne]

That is often the case.
But with Novopay they have been forced to extensively modify a package to an almost impossible degree of complexity.
Even if the school administrators do everything right, you can get a new techie term: 'quality in, garbage out'.

"Forced" - they chose to modify the package, after all they bid and won the contract so you would expect they did some due diligence before hand and knew what was required. Or maybe they thought they would get away with the stock package with a couple of simple tweaks because it was incorrectly scoped by them.

[Wayne]

You're still struggling with the concept that the teachers may be responsible for their problems.

You're right there Bob. The old system worked, the new one doesn't.
The teachers didn't change anything in the meantime. I have seen
this before in the IT industry where you blame the user.

If you were to come to me wanting a hammer to hammer in and pull out nails and
I gave you a ball peen hammer because it was cheaper would it be fair when you
complain that it doesn't pull out nails for me to say you should change the way
you work? No it wouldn't - I gave you the wrong tool.

My son upgraded my server one weekend (to fix a fault) and it wouldn't run all
I wanted to run so he tells me I don't need to run those apps - Youth eh! I
down graded it again and fixed the actual fault - you can't tell the customer
they are the fault just because you can't fix the fault.

[donna]

"Forced" - they chose to modify the package, after all they bid and won the contract so you would expect they did some due diligence before hand and knew what was required. Or maybe they thought they would get away with the stock package with a couple of simple tweaks because it was incorrectly scoped by them.

What are other countries doing - what software are they using? We can not be that unique that we couldn't have used software that is working elsewhere aye.

cheers,

Donna

[Wayne]

What are other countries doing - what software are they using? We can not be that unique that we couldn't have used software that is working elsewhere aye.

cheers,

Donna

You would tink so but I have no idea. No one has been able to explain to me what
is so hard about the teachers contract 'that they brought upon themselves'.

[Bob Kane]

What are other countries doing - what software are they using? We can not be that unique that we couldn't have used software that is working elsewhere aye.

cheers,

Donna

You would tink so but I have no idea. No one has been able to explain to me what
is so hard about the teachers contract 'that they brought upon themselves'.

Have another read from Steven Joyce:

"So there's something about the way we pay our teachers in this country as well which causes a problem whenever the software is changed ... We do have to get to the bottom of that."

And remember this?:

This problem goes back many years and in fact this is the second pay system which has been difficult.. Mr Joyce said there had been similar issues with the pay system for teachers introduced in the 1990s.

Seems a pretty clear-cut explanation of why there are problems.

Maybe someone who is in close contact with the schools could share some information about the teachers remuneration package and how it is calculated and let's see if there's anything complex involved?

[BigRedDog]

Come on Bob....

Can't be any more complex than your local Countdown.
How many part timers, casual workers and workers randomly called in would be working there?

Stop pointing the finger at teachers who had NO input into the system that handles their pay.
It is up to the bosses to deliver a working pay system.

You wouldn't work as a mechanic and then make sure your pay system actually works would you?

[speights boy]

Seems a pretty clear-cut explanation of why there are problems.

Ahh yes.
A government minister explaining why the problems are not a result of government action.

Yes, very clear cut indeed.

[Perry]

A government minister explaining why the problems
are not a result of government action.
Yes, very clear cut indeed.

What's wrong with government inaction?

[Bob Kane]

Can't be any more complex than your local Countdown.
How many part timers, casual workers and workers randomly called in would be working there?

If we follow that line of thinking then why don't they dump Novopay and borrow the local Countdown payroll system and have everyone paid on time and in full?
You are saying that there is an easy fix to the problems but the Education dept is deliberately not choosing that easy fix. A bit hard to believe.

Stop pointing the finger at teachers who had NO input into the system that handles their pay.

The teachers have absolute say in all the complex variations in their pay system - after all, they have negotiated all these special conditions over the years and demand they be continued.
Here's a simply suggestion - why don't the teachers ask for their annual salary to be divided by 26 and be paid that every two weeks? With an adjustment every 3 months or so to catch up any discrepancies. I think even Novopay could handle that.

It is up to the bosses to deliver a working pay system.

I guess the teachers could vote with their feet?

[Wayne]

Here's a simply suggestion - why don't the teachers ask for their annual salary to be divided by 26 and be paid that every two weeks? With an adjustment every 3 months or so to catch up any discrepancies. I think even Novopay could handle that.

Bob - do you know how they are paid now? Their annual salary is divided by 26 and they get that every fortnight! They get allowances on top of that.

Of course that only works for the full time teachers - the part-timers are paid for the half days they work.

There are full time part-timers (those that fill other teacher release days) and part time part-timers (those that fill in for those sick etc).

There are also full time part-timrs who do part time part-time. That could be 'fixed' by forcing teachers to choose - ie not do extra fill-ins - but should a system force employment behaviour or should the system just do its job?

[Wayne]

Maybe someone who is in close contact with the schools could share some information about the teachers remuneration package and how it is calculated and let's see if there's anything complex involved?

I take it from this that you have no idea about what you have been talking about.