So Key is standing by Parata...

[Bob Kane]

I don't think comments about pay regime complexity are relevant,
either. As TLL mooted, there was something seriously wrong at
a fundamental level.

There's been some talk of the Novopay system costing $100 million.
It's possible that it will be scrapped and they start again from scratch - because the teachers pay system requirements are so complex that no payroll company has an existing application that will meet those needs.
Extensive modifications will be needed and that costs money.
So the budgeted $100 million cost could blow out to twice that.
So will the govt front up $200 million for a payroll system for 50,000 teachers?
I think not.
So how this plays out will be very interesting.
Reducing the complexity seems inevitable.

[eri]

the machiavelli in me

says keys keeps her now

and cuts her later

[Wayne]

But why have the teachers negotiated a complex pay system over the years?

Are there any examples of the supposed complexity?

Why haven't they gone down the simple approach which reduces the risk of errors to their pay?
The teachers have got the payroll system to meet their demands - only this new version doesn't quite work and the teachers are now paying the price.

They didn't need to - the old system worked!

[donna]

Which National MP would want to be the Minister of Education?
No teacher votes for National so every employee would be hostile to every action by the Minister.
For that reason I'd keep Parata on and tell her to get stuck in... National won't lose any votes.

Yep agreed - if she can hold on in there - it's best for National to keep her in the role.

[Perry]

Anyone Remember INCIS?

Starting to sound remarkably like a cracked record. Blessed
be the hapless NZ taxpayers and their bottomless pockets.

How To Plan A Computer Disaster
Notes of a talk I gave at SPUSC 99 (South Pacific User
Services Conference) and an NZCS meeting.
Author: Tony Dale, Computer Science Department, University of Canterbury.

Over 1999 a number of large computer project disasters, each costing more
than 10 million dollars, have hit the headlines, so I thought I'd look in to some
of the reasons for their occurence. There is an extensive literature on project
disasters, and they are quite well-characterized, but still they happen.

The Standish Group has estimated the annual costs of computer software
disasters to be over 80 billion dollars (in J. Johnson, 1995; "Chaos: the dollar
drain of IT project failures", Applied Development Trends, pp 41-7).

For many examples I'll draw on the INCIS disaster, described as "One of the
biggest bureaucratic bungles in NZ history". Anyone want to buy a used
IBM mainframe?

Could be that NoWayPay will eclipse the earlier debacle. Of course, as none
of the bureaucrats or politicians feel it in their pockets, the malfeasance
marches on to the sound of a different thrum.

PS
Wikipedia on the score.

PPS
Cartoon for the occasion.

[Wayne]

the really sad thing about INCIS was that it was supposed to save money by being able to let staff go. Unfortunately they started to sack people before INCIS created the gains and all hell broke loose - don't count your chickens before they hatch.

[Bob Kane]

Are there any examples of the supposed complexity?

It's been reported in the papers that the Novopay system can't handle teachers who work part-time or work in different schools or get special allowances for different tasks.
The proof is in the performance of the Novopay system. If it was a simple payroll situation it would have been rolled out working fine on day 1. And any problems would have been fixed by day 7.
Now, after enormous effort for the last 5 months - it's still faulty.
And no payroll supplier has stepped up and offered to take it on.

They didn't need to - the old system worked!

So why don't they dust off the old system and run with that?

Complex systems cost enormous $$$$
I'm picking that the Education Dept hasn't got the funds to complete the Novopay system.
And they haven't got the funds to get the old system up and running.
And no payroll supplier can do the job for the modest funds that the dept does have.
So it's lose-lose-lose all round.
Perhaps they should have aimed for a more modest payroll system?

[Winston001]

Yes the INCIS debacle was an eyeopener. You'd think that a police computer system would be available off the shelf given the number of large police departments throughout the world. But no - we had to have a specific system built for little ol' NZ.

Incidentally a mate of mine at police HQ told me that IBM wore the cost in the end and it didn't cost us much after all. I'm still wondering if we were talking at cross purposes and he meant the police budget didn't suffer, but forgetting the taxpayer may well have done. Anybody know?

[Bob Kane]

Starting to sound remarkably like a cracked record. Blessed
be the hapless NZ taxpayers and their bottomless pockets.

How To Plan A Computer Disaster

Here's a few quotes which is where I'm coming from:

Complexity.
One big project makes for a much bigger disaster than a lot of little ones. Combinatorial explosion seems to make costs balloon and schedules slip with the greatest of ease.

Don't change or simplify your business to fit a standard package but rather commission custom software or (best) modify an existing package extensively.

[BigRedDog]

Funny Bob... I just think Novopay simply stink.

Otago uni
NZ Post
Now the teachers.

Yeah must be the task that is too hard.

[Wayne]

It's been reported in the papers that the Novopay system can't handle teachers who work part-time or work in different schools or get special allowances for different tasks.
The proof is in the performance of the Novopay system. If it was a simple payroll situation it would have been rolled out working fine on day 1. And any problems would have been fixed by day 7.
Now, after enormous effort for the last 5 months - it's still faulty.
And no payroll supplier has stepped up and offered to take it on.

So having teachers that work part time is complex? And working in differant schools (relieving I suppose) - how would you simplify that? Don't allow teachers to work part time for differant schools?

How about the teachers that haven't been paid yet this year - how is that complex?

I will admit there are some allowances that could be considered complex but they don't change weekly. I get a few allowances at work and the system seems to be able to handle that. I am on a sallary but get lieu days and OT for working on stat days - the system handles that.

Not being able to handle a 'complex' system just means that it wasn't scoped properly at the start and that is Telent2's fault as far as I can see.

So why don't they dust off the old system and run with that?

Complex systems cost enormous $$$$
I'm picking that the Education Dept hasn't got the funds to complete the Novopay system.
And they haven't got the funds to get the old system up and running.
And no payroll supplier can do the job for the modest funds that the dept does have.
So it's lose-lose-lose all round.

They had the funds to pay the quoted, contract price to buy what they thought was a system to meet their needs - that is what they were sold.
And the old system worked up until Nevapay went live so get it running again.

I can't imagine how much it is going to cost to audit what everyone has (or hasn't) been paid and all the monies that are supposed to go to Kiwisaver etc.

Perhaps they should have aimed for a more modest payroll system?

Probably they should have believed th testing failures before they went live and forced talent2 to honour the contract before payment.

[speights boy]

- because the teachers pay system requirements are so complex .........

I'll make a wild guess Bob.

You weren't employed by NASA in the 1960s.

[Learning]

The last thing we want is each school developing its own payroll system.
Teachers should be in the classroom teaching our kids, not building a large IT dept to pay themselves.

Completely agree that we don't want each school developing their own system but what's wrong with them being in control of the one they've got? By law their books are checked by an independent auditor appointed to them.

I also completely agree that teachers should be in the classroom teaching but with the current mess that's not happening as it should either! Before this No(av)Pay mess the school Principle or admin clerk was spending 30min-an hour on payroll each cycle. Now they are spending hours if not days trying to fight a bunch of idiots who don't know what they are doing. And they are being told that this is going to take a year to sort.

As a LL with mortgages and a family to support how long would you give your teacher tenants a sympathetic smile as they are late with another rent payment?

As a Board member on my kids local school we have just approved taking $5000 from our learning resources budget to pay the principle and admin clerk for the days of unpaid over time they have spent on this in the past months. There is no where else in the budget we can cut, we literary have to go with out books so that we can keep paying our teachers!!!

The schools get $X from the government to spend on staff (at set rates) depending on the number of children enrolled. No(va)Pay is taking money from these schools and giving it to complete strangers!! And it is up to the school to chase them down and try to get this money back!!!

[Learning]

Yep agreed - if she can hold on in there - it's best for National to keep her in the role.

Go along to your local schools board meetings a few times and you'll change your tune. National are destroying the education system bit by bit.

[Wayne]

I also completely agree that teachers should be in the classroom teaching but with the current mess that's not happening as it should either! Before this No(av)Pay mess the school Principle or admin clerk was spending 30min-an hour on payroll each cycle. Now they are spending hours if not days trying to fight a bunch of idiots who don't know what they are doing. And they are being told that this is going to take a year to sort.

The teachers are still teaching - they get this sorted in their own time. Principals working extra hours etc. Teachers and Principals work enough hours already without this.