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Andrew King: Income tax cuts admirable, but let's look again at winners and losers

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  • Andrew King: Income tax cuts admirable, but let's look again at winners and losers

    Andrew King: Income tax cuts admirable, but let's look again at winners and losers

    4:00 AM Monday Apr 12, 2010

    If income tax rates are to fall, then someone has to pay for it.
    We will all contribute through higher GST, which is fair. And many think it is fair for tenants and rental property owners to make up the shortfall.
    The main reasons suggested are that property investors have a tax advantage and that they take money out of the tax system.
    It is understandable why people may feel that increasing rental property tax is reasonable, but have we been told all the facts and the ramifications of these tax changes?
    "Rental property has a tax advantage" is a general statement that has been repeated so often it is assumed to be a fact.
    Some believe that one advantage is paying no tax if you sell a property for more than it cost you. While that's true, this is also the same for buying or selling a business, shares or any other investment.
    Vodka seller 42 Below Zero started in a garage in 2002 and sold the company four years later for $138 million. No tax would have been payable on this.
    Trade Me was started from scratch in 1999 and sold for $750 million in 2006. The owners (including Tax Working Group member Gareth Morgan) paid no tax on this amount.
    If I buy 100,000 shares in a company for $1 and sell them for $1.50 the next day I pay no tax on the gain.
    Others say that because rental property owners can write off losses against other income they make, this is a tax advantage. However the same rules apply to any investment or business.
    If I buy a part-time business and lose money while building it up, I can use this loss to reduce the tax on my other income.
    Being able to claim mortgage interest payments as a tax deduction could be seen as a tax advantage. However if I borrow funds to purchase shares or a business then the cost of the interest is tax deductible as well.
    Share investors have said rental property has a tax advantage because owners can claim depreciation on the building but they can't depreciate their shares.
    While this is true, the companies they buy shares in have access to the same depreciation rules as rental property.
    Plus, if the rental property increases in value when sold, the depreciation is clawed back by the Inland Revenue.
    The fact is rental property has no tax advantage over other businesses or investments.
    This was confirmed by Inland Revenue Deputy Commissioner Robin Oliver.
    When asked by a Government select committee if there were tax advantages for investments in rental housing, Oliver said: "The short answer is there are none. Rules about expenses for deducting costs such as interest, upkeep and maintenance, as well as paying tax on income were the same for investments in shares or anything else. In fact under the housing case there are tighter rules to what is a capital gain."
    Institute of Chartered Accountants tax director Craig Macalister sounded caution regarding the proposals to tax rental properties differently from other assets.
    "Those proposals signal a departure from the way in which other income-generating assets are taxed. We need to be careful not to fall into the trap of selected taxes for different assets or investments for all the reasons why these were a failure in the past."
    Many believe rental property takes tax money from the system rather than paying into it. This is because there was a combined loss of $500 million in 2008, resulting in around $150 million of tax deductions.
    But information supplied to the Tax Working Group by the IRD shows the rental property industry has made losses in only two of the past 28 years. Interest rate and house price increases from 2003, without corresponding increases in rental prices, were the reason for the profitability declines.
    To suggest rental property owners are tax takers rather than tax payers based on two of the past 28 years is clearly misleading.
    It would be a mistake to target tenants and rental property owners based on incorrect information and assumptions.
    However these two groups would not be the only ones to suffer from onerous property taxes.
    If investment in rental property declines, the housing market is likely to decline as well. Some believe this would be good for first home buyers, but higher rental prices would affect them in raising a deposit.
    There is a $6000 difference in the cost of owning the average NZ home rather than renting it, so there is room for rental prices to increase if the cost of providing rental property increases.
    Tenants are not the only ones to suffer. Home owners' equity would reduce, and lower house prices would make it difficult for small to medium businesses that use their homes as collateral for business borrowing.
    The aim of reducing income tax rates is admirable, but a great deal more thought is needed on how this will be achieved.
    * Andrew King is vice-president of the NZ Property Investors Association.
    "There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says 'yes,' you know he is a crook." Groucho Marx

  • #2
    There is a $6000 difference in the cost of owning the average NZ home rather than renting it, so there is room for rental prices to increase if the cost of providing rental property increases.
    Hi Andrew,

    Where does this $6000 figure come from?

    Thanks
    DFTBA

    Comment


    • #3
      Dear property investors,

      can you please stop whining like little children.

      the government is hitting you with a big stick because as a result of your actions you have increased housing debt nine fold in less than 20 years and what have you done with this money? invested it in a non-productive asset - in most cases you have just continued to pay more and more for the same asset nz inc already owned - just racking up more debt in the process.

      our debt levels and income to debt ratios are now laughing stock material in the world and we risk a financial meltdown of epic proportions the next time we have a shock to our (namely the australian) banking system because of the level of debt you have incurred.

      you have been very stupid, property investors, and will continue to be stupid - hell there would be arguments for 110%+ LVRs if you could get away with it.

      Because you are so very stupid and directly descended from the morons that perpetuated the 87 sharemarket crash and any other mass hysteria investment crazes over the past 100 years, the government now has to come in and teach you a lesson before we are completely ****ed (in my opinion not possible).

      I hope you burn in hell.

      Yours sincerely,
      American Psycho

      Comment


      • #4
        I think you will find the Government won't touch it that much other than playing with depreciation a little.

        Also a lot of home owners affected the market more by upgrading to more expensive homes and mortgaging these properties to buy toys. Property Investors only make up a small part of the market. And a lot of the problems in the market around the world was caused from the American sub prime market not NZ's
        Nigel Turner

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by american_psycho View Post
          Dear property investors,

          can you please stop whining like little children.

          the government is hitting you with a big stick because as a result of your actions you have increased housing debt nine fold in less than 20 years and what have you done with this money? invested it in a non-productive asset - in most cases you have just continued to pay more and more for the same asset nz inc already owned - just racking up more debt in the process.

          our debt levels and income to debt ratios are now laughing stock material in the world and we risk a financial meltdown of epic proportions the next time we have a shock to our (namely the australian) banking system because of the level of debt you have incurred.

          you have been very stupid, property investors, and will continue to be stupid - hell there would be arguments for 110%+ LVRs if you could get away with it.

          Because you are so very stupid and directly descended from the morons that perpetuated the 87 sharemarket crash and any other mass hysteria investment crazes over the past 100 years, the government now has to come in and teach you a lesson before we are completely ****ed (in my opinion not possible).

          I hope you burn in hell.

          Yours sincerely,
          American Psycho
          Oh Dear! It's an opinion I suppose and everyone should be entitled to theirs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Gee, as someone said to me recently, tell us what you really think American Psycho! Don't hold back!

            Are you perhaps a finance company investor? Perhaps a BlueChip victim? You certainly seem quite aggrieved.

            Unfortunately this is the sort of reaction property investors seem to be getting right now. We're the greedy ones bringing down the country! And we have to pay!

            Everyone likes to blame someone other than themselves for their problems. It's human nature. That's all we're seeing now.

            And this has happened before. In the 1970s property speculators were blamed for the large increases in house prices back then. To be a property speculator was like being a slave trader or something. Trading in the poor people's misery. But of course it only lasted a few years and then people got over themselves.
            Squadly dinky do!

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes I did didnt I Davo, you slave trader you !!!

              At least we should be thankful we know where this Pscho resides
              Last edited by Perry; 15-04-2010, 02:34 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ha! Best post of the year or what?
                The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates and a monthly salary - Fred Wilson.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Dear american psycho,

                  can you please stop whining like little children.

                  the ...................... is hitting you with a big stick because as a result of your actions you have increased grief levels nine fold in less than 20 years and what have you done with this spite? invested it in a non-productive asset - in most cases you have just continued to pay out more and more without contributing an original thought - just racking up more debt in the process.

                  you are now laughing stock material on the forum and we risk a moderator meltdown of epic proportions the next time you shock-jock your twisted path to infamy.

                  you have been very stupid...........and will continue to be stupid - hell there would be arguments for half of what you said if you said it the right way.

                  Because you are so very stupid and directly descended from the morons that perpetuated the 87 sharemarket crash and any other mass hysteria investment crazes over the past 100 years, the government now has to come in and teach you a lesson before we are completely ****ed (in my opinion not possible).

                  I hope you burn in hell.

                  Yours sincerely,
                  non-American sicko
                  have you defeated them?
                  your demons

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Very good article, Andrew.
                    Well written and presented in a calm manner.
                    As such, Bernard and Mary will probably ignore it but hopefully it causes a few people to reconsider their position on changes to the property tax laws.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I also thought the article was quite good.

                      However - I see one error: Where he says "If I buy 100,000 shares in a company for $1 and sell them for $1.50 the next day I pay no tax on the gain."
                      This statement is not true if he bought them with the intention of selling them for a higher price the next day.
                      In that case, he is a share trader, and should pay income tax on that profit.

                      Otherwise, quite factual.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I also agree this is one of the better articles he has written recently. Kept to the facts and left out some irrational mutterings.

                        Re the shares, you are technically correct but much like the traders that weren't declaring profits, this is an enforcement problem. Has the IRD asked NZX the names of everyone who has bought and sold more than 10 times like they did to the land transfer office???
                        Last edited by Perry; 15-04-2010, 02:36 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          re the shares - maybe, maybe not. Same question of intent at purchase as with houses etc.
                          Last edited by Perry; 15-04-2010, 02:36 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ifs buts and maybes

                            Originally posted by flyernzl View Post
                            I also thought the article was quite good.

                            However - I see one error: Where he says "If I buy 100,000 shares in a company for $1 and sell them for $1.50 the next day I pay no tax on the gain."
                            This statement is not true if he bought them with the intention of selling them for a higher price the next day.......
                            .
                            The statement is true if he bought them without the intent to resell them for a higher price the next day.

                            So it's not really an error now is it????

                            Cheers
                            Spaceman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What are the rules around being labelled as a share trader? A friend of mine was audited due to his share purchases and sales and they let him go because the volume of his transactions wasn't deemed to be significant enough to label him as a trader.
                              You can find me at: Energise Web Design

                              Comment

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