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  • Hec
    Opinionated
    • Dec 2004
    • 248

    #1

    To get worse ?

    From a prominent economist on the nzcity website : http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/articl...newsmain,narts

    Over the past six months I have varied my opinion about the seriousness of the world financial situation from moderately bad to terrible to 'muddle through'. Right now I am steering back to a 'terrible' viewpoint based on the continuation of bad news relating to international liquidity.

    9 August 2008
    While some issues have been dealt with relatively successfully, most notably with the subprime mortgage market in the US, other related impacts of a tightness in the availability of credit globally continue to be felt. There is every chance of more bad news to come.

    One opinion I respect comes from Nouriel Roubini, an economics professor at New York University's Stern School of Business. He is not a disaster theorist like many commentators yet his outlook is just about as bad.

    In a recent interview with Bloomberg he stressed his view that the coming recession, particularly in the USA, will be the worst in decades, and the financial crisis is the worst since the Great Depression. He believes a large number of banks are close to insolvent and will require a government bailout.

    Non-bank institutions like Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch will need to be taken over by a bank. "This is a systemic financial crisis. There is no end to it. The home prices are falling; the housing recession is getting worse. It's spreading to the entire economy. And it's a vicious circle between a contracting economy and greater credit and financial losses feeding on the economy. At this point, you cannot prevent the recession. You cannot prevent a severe financial crisis," he warns.

    However, some of the bailouts so far have helped people whose bad decisions caused the crisis in the first place. "I think this bailout of Wall Street, of the rich and the well connected, is not right. You have to first wipe out the shareholders.

    "If you're going to put public capital, the shareholders should be gone. You replace management that was corrupt and inefficient.

    "There has been a systemic moral hazard in financial markets. This is just privatising the gains and socializing the losses. At this point, this is just reckless. This is not the right plan."

    Curiously, Roubini is not predicting a continuation of inflationary pressures. That's because economic growth is going to cease or slow down, reducing demand. “We're going to be in a severe financial crisis, you're going to have a slacking labour market that's going to control wage and labour costs. You're going to have a slacking goods market controlling the price. And even oil prices are going to fall sharply."

    His outlook for shares is hardly buoyant. He notes the US share market has corrected 20% so far and he thinks it’s going to fall another 20% this year alone. In the typical US recession, the fall in equity prices is around 30%. This time he believes is a worse recession, therefore equity prices are going to fall further.

    His outlook is for approximately 18 months so readers with a longer term outlook should not be thinking about putting all their money under the bed. But stick with safe investments.

    One of these days, and it is likely to be years, markets will again turn around and all the serious money will go to investors who have been brave and patient.
    Well i'm to buy some more Put Leaps !

    Hec
    Last edited by BusyLizzy; 09-08-2008, 09:43 AM. Reason: fixed quote and added link
  • McDuck
    Fanatical
    • Apr 2005
    • 4377

    #2
    Yup.

    When a system gets so big, and you throw in too may complicated features, who can understand it, and therefore act in the best interests of the individual and also the larger group.

    Perhaps the answer is to have the Govt approve any new financial instrument (like CDO's) before they are unleashed upon an unsuspecting economic world.

    Most other real products, like food or drugs for example, must pass tests before they are allowed.
    Why not put the Banker's "brain burps" through their paces also.

    Picture this.

    At the supermarket.
    OK, so what we will do is put in one rotten egg with the other 11 good ones and sell the set as mostly good.
    Last edited by McDuck; 09-08-2008, 08:15 AM.

    Comment

    • Gatekeeper
      Fanatical
      • Jan 2004
      • 1542

      #3
      Nouriel Roubini

      Roubini is thinking it will be what he calls "Stagdeflation".
      A deflationary recession, not inflationary, with low growth.

      It is kind of pointing that way. This will hit a lot of people as they are so used to inflation, and invest accordingly. Cash becomes the ultimate, as credit will be very difficult to get and the value of money (real money, not funny debt money, actually increases). That would be good IMHO.
      Find The Trend Whose Premise Is False - Then Bet Against It

      Comment

      • Gatekeeper
        Fanatical
        • Jan 2004
        • 1542

        #4
        From Roubini's Blog site yesterday.
        Roubini has given "London Banker" his own blog, and he is one very wise person (whoever he is - he won't tell)


        Snake Oil and Deflation
        London Banker | Aug 8, 2008


        We are likely in future to have great debates on the who, how, why and wherefore of the coming recession/depression, particularly if it leads to global conflict and currency realignments that mark the end of Bretton Woods II and US economic hegemony. At base we have the quote I opened with last week:

        “Panics do not destroy capital; they merely reveal the extent to which it has been previously destroyed by its betrayal into hopelessly unproductive works”. - John Stuart Mill

        The difficulty is that the policies which financed highly leveraged unproductive works are extremely popular to the extent of representing the culture of at least two generations. While a deflationary recession/depression will make such policies even more costly and destructive than they have been in getting us to the critical point of failure, the same policies are such basic political drivers that without a culture change political and economic change become almost impossible.

        It should be obvious that borrowing short through commercial paper to lend long on mortgages and credit cards to bad credits with inadequate collateral is not a sound business model. And yet somehow the alchemy of securitisation with a sprinkling of AAA pixie dust was widely accepted as turning financial lead into gold. It should be obvious that a house, once built, is not a productive asset as it produces no revenue but instead absorbs a high proportion of its owner’s income on mortgage interest, property taxes, maintenance and utilities. It should be obvious that credit card debt, once consumption goods are purchased, produces no productive income stream for repayment of the debt but instead becomes an obstacle to future consumption as debt service eats up a rising proportion of stagnant wages. It should be obvious that a car that weighs twice as much and uses twice as much fuel is not as productive as a car that is small and fuel efficient, and costing twice as much will harm more productive savings and investment with the excess debt borrowed for its purchase. It should be obvious that the financial sector, as intermediaries between savers and productive ventures requiring capital, should never rise to the point where it alone represents over thirty percent of economic activity. Nonetheless, markets all over the world carelessly followed the path of under-production, dis-savings and over-consumption as the path to prosperity rather than a betrayal of capital into hopelessly unproductive works.

        It will be a very brave politician indeed that says that young people should save twenty percent cash for a downpayment on their first home (as is the rule generally in countries that never experience boom/bust property cycles like Germany and Switzerland). It will be a very brave politician indeed that says that consumers should save cash to purchase electronic goods and cars. It will be a very brave politician indeed that raises taxes on single family housing and privately owned cars in the face of a sustained housing market crash and sustained high oil prices. It will be a very brave politican indeed that says that the financial sector should not be government subsidised with tax breaks on interest, tax breaks on unproductive speculation, tax avoidance through off-shore registration of hedge funds and private equity, and other magnanimous means of raising election year contributions.

        In short, the system which has for sixty years precipitated the greatest debt cycle in history may be inadequate to address the greatest deflationary cycle in history if it chooses to prescribe the same snake oil which sickened the economy in the first place rather than the balanced (fiscal) diet and (strict economy) excercise we all know would be better for us.

        Even bank supervisors, who should know better than others that rapid asset growth is the surest indicator of bank failure, chose instead to believe the hype and ignore the reality. Instead of intervening to curb credit excess, regulators congratulated themselves on overseeing a robust and innovative financial sector while rewriting their rulebooks to embrace the market’s delusional ratings-based models for undercapitalising greater and less transparent risks.

        If the core problem leading to the current seizure of the credit markets is the misallocation of credit into unproductive works during the boom years, then no amount of new credit will solve the problem unless the distortions promoting misallocation are redressed through fiscal and regulatory policy changes. Bailouts and recapitalisation of failed policies of the past are only digging a deeper hole, betraying more capital of younger generations into the unproductive works financed by the current generation.

        Correcting the bias toward betrayal of capital will not be popular or easy. Correcting the bias toward unproductive investments will require a massive change of political structures, financial intermediation channels, savings and consumption habits, and economic incentives which challenge virtually every assumption made by at least two generations of American businessmen and consumers and exported globally.

        Regulatory policies promoting misallocation of capital included elimination of restrictions on bank dealing and brokerage of securities and derivatives, self-determined models-based capital adequacy calculation, ratings-based weightings of capital assets, accounting reforms that permitted off-balance sheet financings and acceptance of ill-transparent corporate structures. Re-knitting that sweater/jumper, however ill-fitting and itchy, won’t be easy either.

        Consumer credit is viewed as a fundamental necessity by virtually all classes of the workforce. Weaning the populace from borrowing to saving would require a huge shift of policy and popular culture. Few of the generations raised on instant gratification of desire will gracefully or voluntarily shift to living within their means and saving for their future requirements.

        In short, there are no easy answers. We have hypothecated our future prosperity to repayment of our current debts. We will live less well in future, as will our children for a time. Whether by inflation or deflation our debts must be extinguished. Savings must be encouraged and must be allocated to productive investments that will yield not just future prosperity but social equity to minimise political conflicts.

        Those who sold us or imposed on us the current set of policies and practices will be re-bottling their snake oil under new labels. We must be wary before buying bulk lots in the tens of billions of dollars worth of the same old snake oil that has sickened our economies and political processes already. In the US, I class the bailouts of Bear Stearns/JPM and Freddie/Fannie as snake oil, that perpetuates the subsidies to speculation and unproductive housing markets. In the UK, I class the talk of a cut in stamp duty (a transfer tax on house sales) as similar snake oil. Snake oil, unfortunately, wins elections because it appeals to constituencies that are politically important. As a result, we may be entering a dangerous phase where the democratic structures are biased to economically damaging policies that further harm future growth and prosperity because investment in unproductive works is so widespread as to form part of the popular culture.

        Deflation challenges many of the assumptions that work in an inflationary context: "Property is a safe investment." and "You'll be fine in equities in the long term." and "Governments don't default." When people are forced to reconsider these cherished touchstones of their financial beliefs, they will also reconsider the cherished notions of their political beliefs. It was under similar conditions that nations in the past embraced racial hatred, ethnic divisions, discrimination by gender/sexual preference, economic imperialism and war as a means of directing public discontent away from threatened elites.

        Just bear in mind who sold you the snake oil that sickened you, and be wary of new bottles of whatever shape or size from the same salesmen.
        Find The Trend Whose Premise Is False - Then Bet Against It

        Comment

        • Badger
          Fanatical
          • Feb 2008
          • 1796

          #5
          Things are just getting warmed up

          Comment

          • Perry
            Geriatric
            • Sep 2004
            • 16861

            #6
            Maybe so, but that's what the gloomsayers have
            been purveying to us all since about March 2007.

            Comment

            • Rem
              Freshie
              • Aug 2004
              • 55

              #7
              The Federal reserve has been printing money like its going out of fashion... the US and global economy is built on a deck of cards....thanks to franctional lending.

              This has been done many times in our history and fails every time. The US dollar if a fiat currency, like all of them inc NZ dollar. Its no longer backed by gold.

              There is only one outcome eventually, collapse of the dollar.

              What effect will that have on NZ?

              It does not take a genius to see what happened during the great depression....main difference now being that its global.

              One of the smart things to do in my opinion is to buy gold and silver....

              Seems we are just at the beginning of the storm.

              PS the Fed Reserve is privately owned, and not US government owned. Look it up.

              Comment

              • muppet
                Banned
                • Sep 2003
                • 10593

                #8
                Gold now down to US$810/oz

                and silver down to US$14.27/oz

                Comment

                • muppet
                  Banned
                  • Sep 2003
                  • 10593

                  #9
                  That is NZ$1182/oz for gold and
                  NZ$21/oz for silver.

                  NZDollar at .6979

                  Therefore the kilo bars of silver on TradeMe should be going for around $650-$700 each, not the $900 some are asking.
                  Last edited by muppet; 12-08-2008, 07:11 PM.

                  Comment

                  • drelly
                    Fanatical
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 5838

                    #10
                    Gold and silver bubble?
                    You can find me at: Energise Web Design

                    Comment

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