Religious Education in Primary Schools

[drelly]

I'm interested to find out what people's perceptions of RE classes in primary schools are? You'll have seen a lot of talk about the court case started by a parent of a child at Red Beach School in Whangaparaoa. What's your understanding of what is taught, by who and how? Do you think we should have these classes? Why or why not?

[artemis]

My perception based on my experience (long ago) and what the kids said is that the volunteers are mostly from evangelical fundamental Christians, such as Open Brethren and Baptists. They basically told bible stories and gave out activity books or pages. They were not openly proselytising of course - not permitted - but there are subtler ways to get the message across.

It was never very clear that kids could opt out, though some non Christian kids did.

I had a couple of OB friends who explained to me that their mission in life is to preach the gospel to as many people as possible, so they at least have the chance to be saved. I expect that is their motivation for RE classes.

Personally speaking, it is time to stop it completely, even if it does include a nod to other faiths. Which in the case of the fundy Christians would be unlikely I suggest, as they are the work of the devil.

[drelly]

That's pretty much what it is. Although mostly, there is no mention of other religions. It is pure Christian religious indoctrination, there's no objective study or education at all. Over 800 schools in NZ use courses supplied by the Churches Education Commission and taught by volunteers from churches who support them.

I'm trying to get the classes removed from my Daughter's (secular) state school but I've been amazed at the arrogance and ignorance of the board of trustees that I approached to discuss it. They've misinformed and misled parents for years and just repeat the same tired old excuses for keeping it... tradition, status quo, not hurting anyone... it's bollocks.

[Damap]

Always love your attacks on Christianity cleverly dressed up as a question Drelly :-). What happened to you to make you so anti??

[drelly]

Always love your attacks on Christianity cleverly dressed up as a question Drelly :-). What happened to you to make you so anti??

Logic and reason.

I'm trying to provoke discussion on a topic that is very poorly understood. As usual, the media are not great at explaining the issue and Christians generally have no interest in discussing it. It makes me laugh when they complain of being attacked while they are the ones in an entrenched position within a supposedly secular school system that allows them access to children with the express purpose of spreading their faith. Where is the morality and ethics of allowing any religious group access to do this? This isn't just about Christianity. I would not want anyone going in to indoctrinate children in their beliefs, including atheism.

How would you feel if your kids had to leave the classroom of a state school, during school hours while someone came around and tried to tell them that they should pray to Allah and that Jesus was just a man?

[Damap]

I was just interested. There is no comparison with Islam and Christianity. New Zealand, like the rest of the Commonwealth and the USA are based and founded on Christian values, laws and Godly men and women were the founders of those nations. It is the erosion of those principles that is destroying society so many teachers, and when I was involved 25 years ago I would say almost all "bible in school" teachers were endeavouring to help produce good citizens by making suer they understood things like the ten commandments, the golden rule, the difference between good and evil. sadly many homes don't model that at all any more.

[drelly]

Ok, let's play...

I was just interested. There is no comparison with Islam and Christianity.

I wasn't comparing them. I was asking you how you would feel if your kids had to leave the classroom so the other kids could learn about Islam... or Atheism if you prefer.

New Zealand, like the rest of the Commonwealth and the USA are based and founded on Christian values, laws and Godly men and women were the founders of those nations.

What are these unique values that Christians have? I suspect you'll find that everyone has them.

... I would say almost all "bible in school" teachers were endeavouring to help produce good citizens by making suer they understood things like the ten commandments, the golden rule, the difference between good and evil. sadly many homes don't model that at all any more.

And it's not possible to teach kids to be nice without God? I guess the indoctrination just happens by accident!

[Damap]

I wasn't comparing them. I was asking you how you would feel if your kids had to leave the classroom so the other kids could learn about Islam... or Atheism if you prefer.


Originally Posted by Damap
New Zealand, like the rest of the Commonwealth and the USA are based and founded on Christian values, laws and Godly men and women were the founders of those nations.



What are these unique values that Christians have? I suspect you'll find that everyone has them.


Originally Posted by Damap
... I would say almost all "bible in school" teachers were endeavouring to help produce good citizens by making suer they understood things like the ten commandments, the golden rule, the difference between good and evil. sadly many homes don't model that at all any more.



And it's not possible to teach kids to be nice without God? I guess the indoctrination just happens by accident!

Yes that is exactly what I would do. same as in Fiji I would remove kids when Hindu or Muslim things were going on.

If everyone simply followed the ten commandments and Jesus commands to love one another we wouldn't have the screwed up society we do have so clearly not everyone has them no.

Of course it's possible to teach kids to be nice but without a moral compass they have no reason to be nice. As I said my experience was that in the main it was an attempt to restore principles lost in much of society. When I ran a foster home kids would literally transform from trouble making street kids into sane, well behaved productive people just by being loved and learning how to treat others. That behaviour comes from a Judeo Christian framework. Look at any nation today, the further they get away from that framework the more screwed up they tend to become. This is not about a "belief" in God per se simply a reason to treat people well. You don't have to teach kids to be bad for example they do it all by themselves. You do have to teach them to be "good".

[drelly]

Yes that is exactly what I would do. same as in Fiji I would remove kids when Hindu or Muslim things were going on.

So allowing religion into secular state schools is only wrong if it's not your religion?

If everyone simply followed the ten commandments and Jesus commands to love one another we wouldn't have the screwed up society we do have so clearly not everyone has them no.

The point is that they are not Christian values. They are values held by most people, some of whom are Christian. Not all people who say they are Christian live them either, so that's not really a valid point is it?

Of course it's possible to teach kids to be nice but without a moral compass they have no reason to be nice.

Really? So you think the only way kids can have morals is because of religious faith? How about simply having respect for others and because it's better for them and society as a whole?

As I said my experience was that in the main it was an attempt to restore principles lost in much of society. When I ran a foster home kids would literally transform from trouble making street kids into sane, well behaved productive people just by being loved and learning how to treat others.

You can do that without religion. I understand that the community volunteers are trying to do the right thing but they seem blinkered to the view that it's wrong to enter a secular state school and spread their faith, no matter what reason they have for doing it.

That behaviour comes from a Judeo Christian framework.

That behaviour comes from commitment to change. Religious faith is one way but not the only way.

[Maccachic]

Personally I would rather it not in schools - parents can teach their children this stuff - if it has to be it should teach all religions not hand picked one. Schools should focus on the basics and necessities not nice to knows / pandering to certain groups. Parents than then enrol their children in extra circular classes as they see fit.

Teaching right and wrong isn't exclusive to Christianity and can be achieved without an ulterior motives.

[Wayne]

Didn't we have this in another thread a while back?
Seems like the same stuff again.

I agree with Macca on most of what she says but it should be in the social curriculum and cover all faiths.
Too many misconceptions and bias is born from poor education.

Unfortunately, in schools now, what was a 'nice to know' in the past that the parents should have covered off become necessities because parents aren't doing their job.

[artemis]

....... Unfortunately, in schools now, what was a 'nice to know' in the past that the parents should have covered off become necessities because parents aren't doing their job.

There have been problem parents from time immemorial. I wonder if parents are really any worse now. Different, perhaps, in NZ as we have increasing numbers of immigrants. Some of whom, BTW, are deep adherents to faiths which are not Christian. And many NZers are not religious at all but are still good people.

[drelly]

...if it has to be it should teach all religions not hand picked one.

I agree with Macca on most of what she says but it should be in the social curriculum and cover all faiths.

I agree with both of you that kids need to learn about religion in a social studies/history/literature sense but there's a major misconceptions here about what "RE" is.

1. It's not actually religious study/education at all. It is pure indoctrination in the faith of the organisation providing the classes.
2. The classes can't legally be held while the school is open, so although classes are generally held in school hours, the school is "closed".
3. Parents are rarely, (if ever) informed that the classes are extra-curricular, that the school is closed and that children aren't required to attend.
4. Most schools operate an "opt-out" system where your kid is in the class unless you specifically opt out. This is already banned in the USA, Australia, Canada and the UK.
5. The "teachers" are untrained volunteers and the real teachers can't be asked to supervise the classes as that is a breach of their terms of employment (although schools still expect this).
6. The kids that "opt-out" can't legally be taught as the school is "closed", so my daughter loses at least 20 hours of teaching time every year so this organisation can come and indoctrinate the other kids.

I tell you, this topic is a real rabbit hole. The more I look into it, the more disgusted I become at the way the organisation promoting it colludes with churches, school boards and teachers to push their agenda into our schools when they are meant to be secular. When I pointed out to the board members that there was a church 100m down the road that had Sunday School, one of them said "Yes, but they don't go". To me, that says it all... pretty serious conflict of interest!

[artemis]

What happened with the Red Beach court case?

Would a change.org petition be useful?

[drelly]

What happened with the Red Beach court case?
Would a change.org petition be useful?

That's still going through the courts. The CEC (who promote the classes) had partially got involved as a kind of bystander. Not a bad idea about change.org - will look into it.