Property and churches

[Paul34]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10553416

Religion has always made any other scams look lightweight. These are huge land grabs with cash flow paid by numb-nut parishioners, most likely in lower class areas who provide the cashflow.

The Govt. in their wisdom supports this claptrap by making it tax free with no substantive rulkes to show a business whose basis is part the rejection of wealth justifies its expenditure.

Watch the collection plates go into advertising as their cash flow diminishes. That will of course continue to target the young and vulnerable to keep that going aided but hopefully counter voice will start to get people to question the obvious ludicrous of this whole debacle.
From a property play these guys set a new standard in deviousness.

From a property play these guys set a new standard in deviousness.

[McDuck]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10553416
Religion has always made any other scams look lightweight.

Has a Church let you down some time in the past or something?
What people get from their church community is worth every cent they pay.
Or else why would they hand over their money?
What would you rather have them waste it on, smokes, drinks and horses?

[Paul34]

Nice logic McDuck. Your turn of phrase actually says so much:

"What would you rather have them waste it on, smokes, drinks and horses?"

So are you implying that church goers:
a) Are the type of people who waste money
b) smokers drinkers and gamblers
c) Have discretionary income to spend.

I suggest you go spend sometime in places like South Auckland or the Islands. As one who has been involved in the cutting edge of working with families in similar areas I think you will indeed find two of your premises are correct and 1 is false. All of which make them highly susceptible to religion.

[Dean@Massiveaction]

Paul manages to attack Christians and churches for no reason in most of his postings. There will almost undoubtedly be a historical hurt or injustice behind it.

[McDuck]

Nice logic McDuck. Your turn of phrase actually says so much:

"What would you rather have them waste it on, smokes, drinks and horses?"

So are you implying that church goers:
a) Are the type of people who waste money
b) smokers drinkers and gamblers
c) Have discretionary income to spend.

I suggest you go spend sometime in places like South Auckland or the Islands. As one who has been involved in the cutting edge of working with families in similar areas I think you will indeed find two of your premises are correct and 1 is false. All of which make them highly susceptible to religion.

Lets just say that some people live close to their hearts, and some live close to their heads.
Each condition brings it's own rewards and problems.

Heart people may spend non discretionary income on things that harm them - or things that help them.

See, no paradox. Just people.

[Paul34]

Thanks for your love Poomba

For the record there is no “historical hurt or injustice behind it”. It doesn’t surprise me at all that you would jump to such a conclusion and with the confidence of any person that is uneducated while still claiming to know the secrets the universe as told to them by God that you would underwrite this with “undoubtedly” .

So you need assume no more, I was brought up a Catholic something I’m very grateful for. Great education, as is the case at most Catholic schools, critical evaluation of questions spiritual, and most importantly a Christianity that involved both dealing to social injustice actively as well as pragmatic work in soup kitchens, offender work, and prisoner rehabilitation.

My issue with religion came far later when I began to question the philosophical teachings. No injustice just a deep desire to make the world a better place. When the penny began to drop it dropped fast. Fortunately, unlike those that only read one book I was exposed to great thinkers through the ages and of late the atheists’ movement has picked up great pace.

http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus

This is obviously helped by work by Guys like Dennett and the like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great

And at last there is a growing counter voice to the claptrap, mysticism that has dominated, and still dominates some areas of the world, for too long.

Why I do this is to try and make the world a better place. If we are to bring about an age of real reason we must destroy God. I have nothing against Christians more than any other religion. It is just that in this country they are so outspoken and to be frank are such easy targets. The action of many Christians demonstrate their hypocrisy, dodging of direct questions, and general conflict of interest and are great examples that need to be illuminated so that people can question the relationship between religious belief and any sort of morality.

As for how this relates to property this is all related in terms of the sales man (selling everything from property to education) that involve their religion with making money. Reminds me of the parable of the woman in the church who gave quietly from the one who announces it everyone. Jesus knew who to trust!! I’m sure you can selective find a counter story as the bible is great for that.

I just hope this article is the start of something by the Herald who now goes for jugular on what is corruption and idiocy at the highest level.

[McDuck]

Paul.

Good bible name by the way...

No conclusion jumping here.

Just looking for a motive, like any good detective or scientist.

How about you look at the 10% church fee like this.

It's a mentoring fee.

For this small fee they get the wisdom of 3000 years of teachings about the nature of mankind and how to walk a good path through this life.

and it's only 10%.

Now if you stray off the path , and go to drink, smokes, etc, there is a very good chance that you will loose everything.

Is 10% too much to pay for a mentor?

I don't think so.

[Dean@Massiveaction]

The point Mcduck though is that Christians tithe and/or give because God tells them to, not to get anything in return.
It is not a fee for service, it is an acknowledgement of the fact that everything we have is God's.

[McDuck]

The point Mcduck though is that Christians tithe and/or give because God tells them to, not to get anything in return.
It is not a fee for service, it is an acknowledgement of the fact that everything we have is God's.

Yup, and some give for even more evolved reasons.

But what I want Paul to see is the value for money.

Because he thinks it's a scam.

[Dean@Massiveaction]

I agree. What a lot of people don't see is the money churches spend on their own people. My church, (as do most) feeds, educates and assists with housing etc. for a lot of people who otherwise fall through the cracks.

In fact the church is meant to be the social welfare system, not the government.

[McDuck]

Paul, any cent that goes into helping people live a kinder life is a welcome thing.
Compare it to all the money pumped into Violent films and video games and music and so on.
Tell you a book to read.
It's called the screwtape letters.
that' cracks me up.
and it's by the lion the withch and the wardrobe guy.
It really had me cracking up.
Duck out.

[Paul34]

Hi McDuck

Don't get me wrong. I don't think all Christians are bad. I think that many have good intentions, as did the Communists. The road to hell is paved with Good intentions.

The person you are refering to is C.S. Lewis who wrote a very Christian text called mere Christianity.

I just don't believe that it leads to a better life. Areas like South Auckland with its number of Christian families wouldn't be what it is.

The problem is that ethics and a better life are not synonomous with religion. You should read a book called teh Virtues of Selfishness by Ayn Rand. I get sick of Christians talking about being virtuous when their history is riddled with examples of anything but. Ethics is not religion.

Religion is a belief in some crazy myth and everything that comes with it. It has relied on fear and fear of knowledge. That is very very scary and the whole basis of faith is itself a slippery slope which allows Ministers to do what they do to unquestioning mass (no pun intended).

As for all the good that churches do that is like taking 20 dolaars and giving someone 10 back and them thanking you for it!

[Paul34]

I have just re-read your post what is the 10% that you refer to.

Please elabotrate for those that don't know...

[McDuck]

Hi Paul.

That figure of 10% varies between churches.

All that aside.

Do an online search of the screwtape letters.

Just read a few lines of the first letter.

It's very complicated thinking.

You seem to have had a go at high level thinking yourself.

Not many people are able to grasp the full fun of it.

If you read it and feel outclassed by the level of thinking, don't worry, I feel the same.

Duck out.

[Dean@Massiveaction]

South Auckland is no tfull of CHristian families. It is full of religious families, particularly in PI communities many of them are abused and taken advantage of, This has nothing to do with Christianity. We work with a lot of PI families and when they get exposde to real Christianity their lives change and their church gets unhappy because they stop getting screwed over.