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CROSS LEASE - CAN DO'S vs CANT DO's.

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  • CROSS LEASE - CAN DO'S vs CANT DO's.

    Hi, i sure this topic has been discussed numerous times but i am keen to re-visit it and present my case and ideas explore the rights of cross lease landholders, etc.

    I currently have small house in Beach Haven thats on a half share of an approximately 1000sq M cross lease site, the areas and boundaries are well defined by a permanent in place fence, and i'll endeavour to post a photo if i can.

    Anyway, i have been trying quite desparately to find out what i can do and what i can't do with my land, ideally i would like to build a deck off the house. I have made numerous phone calls and enquiries but still feel somewhat in the dark about what i can do and what i can't do, i have also done quite a lot of reading, and it does seem apparent that before altering anything i should get my neighbours approval the sites plan (footprint) etc should be updated to in. All that does make sense and im petty sure i'm well informed as most people, but i would like to know basically what my rights are, and what can and can't be done with the peice of land i have which is probably approximately 250sq M. I have built a veggie garden, down the back as im sick of mowing the lawn, i do have my CT, and what seems to be a copy of the lease, i have phone LINZ, the council, a solicitor, but i still feel a bit in the dark and if anyone can advise me on how i can find out what the restricted covenants are on the lease i would love them, i personally feel my neighbour would probably object to the construction of a deck, as its a sloping section and could have a future effect of noise for them, (although certainly not from me), but from future homeowners, tennants and the like. I basically have a quite large block of land and i would like to use it, i'll try adding some photos for a better explanation of what im talking about, ideally i would like to make a small dwelling out the back, although i know this would seem pretty unrealistic from the reading i have been doing, so i was almost thinking of parking a small motor home out the back, lol, this way it would not be fixed, whilst i dont have a bad relationship with my neighbour, i wouldn't say its wonderful, and they were very quick to come out and ask me what i was doing when i had 4 posts concreted into the ground for construction of a large vege garden using old 4m x 4m planks being my old decking wood, anyway, would love to hear of any information regarding this or anyone who has been in a similar situation. Apologies if the above may sound a bit disjointed, typing this at work in my breaks. Will try to post up some photos.



    Last edited by donna; 06-09-2012, 05:24 PM.

  • #2
    If you've got the lease contract ask your solicitor, he should be able to explain what you can do and what you can't. It really depends case by case, in some cross leases even things like exterior house colour is prescribed. Ask your solicitor, he will find out.

    For such a large section I would also consider breaking the cross lease into two free holds. Depends on the section layout and local council rules if it's possible or not. It costs money but perhaps the neighbour will contribute. After all both properties will increase in value as a result and it's also easier to sell freeholds.

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    • #3
      You need to be talking to your local council. The council should have a file on the property showing the last dwelling built and be able to advise you if you can build a deck. You may need to see a surveyor as well. In a cross lease situation you are entitled to half share in the whole site. What you can build on the land is determined by the sizes of the existing houses so it fits in with the council pre-determined site coverage of the whole site. You could effectively have 2 houses that are different sizes on a cross lease and be unable to add on to those houses at all because you are at maximum. You do need permission from neighbours for any building work as you have a legal interest in each others land.

      Cheers Charlotte30

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      • #4
        Here is an article that is on our PropertyBlogs - written by an lawyer - click here It is easy to read and opened my eyes to cross leases.

        Cheers,

        Donna
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        • #5
          Hi many thanks too all the replies, i was attempting to add a couple of photos for reference, but cannot seem to find how to do this, even tried to load them as my profile pic, but , many thanks.

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          • #6
            Yes you are too new so there's limits on permissions for loading images, links.

            I suggest you send the images to me and I can do it for you - [email protected]

            cheers,

            Donna
            Email Sign Up - New Discussions, Monthly Newsletter, About PropertyTalk


            BusinessBlogs - the best business articles are found here

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            • #7
              Just a quick point:

              There are two quite separate sets of legal obligations here.


              Firstly there is land law: the rights and obligations stemming from the legal interests you hold in the land which are both freehold (of the underlying land) and leasehold. These are what you need to understand before undertaking any work. This is primary.

              Secondly there is compliance with local body bylaws - site coverage, construction, building bylaws etc. Your council doesn't really care about breaching the cross-lease because that's not their responsibility - so they will allow you to do things which aren't actually permitted by the lease.


              You should see your solicitor who can research your specific situation. Its not the sort of thing you can easily work out yourself.
              Last edited by Winston001; 07-09-2012, 10:33 AM.

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              • #8
                Incidentally it occurs to me that this is a good example of the difference between "legal" and "lawful". Almost every question we see asks whether it is "legal" to do something. However often what the inquirer really means is "is it lawful"?

                It is legal to build a conservatory on a cross-lease flat, meaning that building laws allow such a structure.

                However - is the conservatory lawful = in accordance with the law?? No. Cross-lease titles are compromised by any addition to the delineated dwelling.

                It is a semantic point but has real world consequences.

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                • #9
                  Cross leases are put simply a pain. PatMat I think gave you great advice. Instead of getting all embroiled over your plans and possible deck build etc I recommend you will add far more value and future independance / peace of mind by converting your property to Freehold. Sure its going to cost both you and your neighbour but it will never be cheaper to do than today.

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                  • #10
                    Unequal sizes

                    Originally posted by Grundy View Post
                    Cross leases are put simply a pain. PatMat I think gave you great advice. Instead of getting all embroiled over your plans and possible deck build etc I recommend you will add far more value and future independance / peace of mind by converting your property to Freehold. Sure its going to cost both you and your neighbour but it will never be cheaper to do than today.
                    We have a cross lease and would like to freehold it... have not talked to the neighbours yet.

                    However it might be too complicated....

                    The whole section is 1300m2 but our part of the section is about 800m2 vs the neighbour's 500m2. We have the front/wider part and the neighbour has the back corner. Does this inequality present a problem? I believe the zoning is 375m2.

                    The property is accessed by a right of way driveway that serves both cross leases. However it also serves 3 other properties on the other side that are not part of our cross lease. Examining the title it appears that the right of way driveway is split lengthways down the middle... half is owned by us and our cross lease neighbour, and the other half is owned by the three properties on the other side.

                    From memory I think the cross lease was created some time in the early 90s. Our house is the original 1960s building. The neighbour's house has leaky issues.

                    Is this doable? I think it would enhance the value of the property.

                    Cheers

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                    • #11
                      I'm not sure it is really accurate to say you have 800m2 - rather you have a share of 1300m2.
                      If the exclusive use is unequal you will probably have to come to some arrangement on sharing the cost of subdivision.
                      Talk to a surveyor -they should be able to indicate some costs.
                      You will have to sell this to the neighbour though - what's in it for them!

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                      • #12
                        Yeah I agree re the proper definition.

                        The 800m2 is approx as measured using the Auckland GIS website measurement tool over the aerial photograph. But it is accurate enough to know that the relative sizes of the exclusive use areas are very different.

                        What's in it for the neighbour? I think it would be good for them to be freehold too. It means they can redevelop without worrying about me blocking them and hopefully enhances their property value to be freehold. Half share of 1300m2 vs freehold 500m2 wouldn't matter to me... it is the exclusive use area that I would care about.

                        I would not mind paying the majority of the cost of free-holding... pro-rated by the exclusive use area. However I think the neighbour has some big costs coming up due to leaky issues and won't be able to contribute any coin at all...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Johno1234 View Post
                          Yeah I agree re the proper definition.

                          The 800m2 is approx as measured using the Auckland GIS website measurement tool over the aerial photograph. But it is accurate enough to know that the relative sizes of the exclusive use areas are very different.

                          What's in it for the neighbour? I think it would be good for them to be freehold too. It means they can redevelop without worrying about me blocking them and hopefully enhances their property value to be freehold. Half share of 1300m2 vs freehold 500m2 wouldn't matter to me... it is the exclusive use area that I would care about.

                          I would not mind paying the majority of the cost of free-holding... pro-rated by the exclusive use area. However I think the neighbour has some big costs coming up due to leaky issues and won't be able to contribute any coin at all...
                          The exclusive use area will be shown on the Flats Plan.
                          A lot does depend on the lease.

                          Re costs - if this is Auckland seems it could cost a lot. Seems they sting for development contributions - I have no idea though on conversion. Logic would say nothing had changed but this is the council and anything for some extra money.
                          One of the issues that often crops up is with cross-lease you can have shared sewer etc but with subdivision services have to be seperate.
                          This sort of thing can cost $$.

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                          • #14
                            Yep. I can't see this one being under a few tens of thousands in cost.

                            We got the council property file delivered on a CD. I'll go back and see if I can find a Flats Plan in there. There are a number of plans including drainage but the quality of the scanned images was pretty poor. Maybe I can magnify them to make the details readable.

                            Thanks for the comments!

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                            • #15
                              The Flats Plan is part of your title or something - not just a council file doc.

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