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Associated persons rules: important announcement!

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  • SuperDad
    Hamilton Event Organiser
    • Apr 2006
    • 4015

    #1

    Associated persons rules: important announcement!

    Hi all,

    I was reading the Herald today and came across an item according to which the AP rule changes, due to come into force on April 1st, have been delayed.

    Here is the article, with the bits about the AP rules in bold:

    Two tax changes due on Wednesday are among a clutch of reforms being delayed as the Government struggles with a complex tax bill.
    While personal tax cuts get the headlines, Revenue Minister Peter Dunne has announced that some amendments will be delayed.
    National inherited the Taxation (International Taxation, Life Insurance and Remedial Matters) Bill, and says it will not become law before August at the earliest.
    Two of the more contentious changes are a revamp of the tax on life insurance - which insurers say will push up premiums by as much as 25 per cent - and the "associated persons provisions", which mean people or groups associated with property developers could get hit with taxes they didn't expect.
    Various groups are using the delay to ask the Government to rethink the changes.
    Vance Arkinstall, chief executive of the Investment Savings and Insurance Association, said there was so much uncertainty around the complicated changes being proposed for life insurance that even the Society of Actuaries was unclear on how they would work.
    There was a risk of the legislation being rushed. The industry wanted the changes delayed until 2011 because of the effect on the price of an essential financial service.
    "Almost certainly premiums for risk-based life insurance will increase anywhere in the range of 15 to 25 per cent."
    However the industry did concede that the present tax regime dated back to the days when the policies were savings products, he said.
    Now they were mostly risk products, and Inland Revenue had said the shareholders in insurance companies needed to be more accurately taxed on the profits they earned from that business.
    Meanwhile the Institute of Chartered Accountants is worried about changes to the associated persons provisions, which capture people and groups associated with those who deal in property.
    The rules date from the 1970s and were designed to prevent property dealers or developers avoiding tax by putting everything in their spouses' names, for example.
    The institute's director of tax, Craig Macalister, said taxpayers could "drive a bus" through the rules and the reforms were aimed at plugging the gaps.
    However they went too far. "I call it 'Star Trekking', they're just floating off into the wild blue yonder on some of this stuff."
    While some of it had been tidied up, as it stood the bill made no distinction between someone who deliberately tried to avoid tax and someone who got caught up.
    For example, the ex-wife of a property dealer could be taxed if she sold a house she received in the divorce settlement within 10 years.
    The institute was concerned about what other unintended consequences the law may have.
    * While some tax reforms have stalled, Wednesday marks the start of other significant changes.
    In a modification of KiwiSaver workers can drop contribution from 4 per cent to 2 per cent. Employers' contributions rise from 1 per cent to 2 per cent, but will go no higher. There will no longer be a government tax credit to employers and no fee subsidy for savers' accounts.
    Small and medium businesses should benefit from new rules covering provisional tax, with a smaller amount payable early.

    STALLED LEGISLATION
    * Reform of tax on life insurance.
    * Tightening up of 'associated persons' rules preventing tax dodging on property deals.
    * Payroll giving regime, enabling employees to donate to charities direct.
    * Tax exemptions for New Zealand companies offshore (controlled foreign companies, or CFCs).
    Do any of the accountants on the board - e.g. Matthew Gilligan, rosco - have any comments on this?

    Paul.
  • CJ
    Fanatical
    • Oct 2003
    • 3570

    #2
    The introduction date will vary depending on the part of the new act.

    The new Associated person rules are expected to apply from the date of enactment.

    There were lots of submissions on the AP rules so hopefully we will see some changes but I wouldn't hold your breath.

    We will know more once it comes back from the FEC.

    Comment

    • Dean@Massiveaction
      Giving life my best shot
      • Jun 2005
      • 5213

      #3
      Matthew has a mole inside government. These rules are not likely to come in till 01/04/10, they will be significantly narrowed and they will NOT be retrospective.

      All good news compared with where we started.

      Comment

      • GL&CR
        Freshie
        • Apr 2009
        • 6

        #4
        Hi everyone,

        Apologies if this subject has already been posted...

        We wanted to both purchase buy and hold as well as do development but according to the new tax laws; if your name is associated as a director of both a development and buy and hold company, you will pay tax on the sale of both entities...

        We recently had a meeting with our accountant regarding this new tax change, his view was there is nothing we could do to protect ourselves from this, which in my opinion is a bit rough... has there been any development on this? has anyone found a loop hole or structure to avoid this?

        Thank you in advance
        Grant and Cheryl
        Last edited by Perry; 08-04-2009, 08:12 PM. Reason: fixed typo

        Comment

        • typhoon
          Freshie
          • Mar 2008
          • 71

          #5
          better to talk to an expert.

          Originally posted by GL&CR View Post
          Hi everyone,

          Apologies if this subject has already been posted...

          We wanted to both purchase buy and hold as well as do development but according to the new tax laws; if your name is associated as a director of both a development and buy and hold company, you will pay tax on the sale of both entities...

          We recently had a meeting with our account regarding this new tax change, his view was there is nothing we could do to protect ourselves from this, which in my opinion is a bit rough... has there been any development on this? has anyone found a loop hole or structure to avoid this?

          Thank you in advance
          Grant and Cheryl
          Gday Grant & Cheryl - i strongly recommend you talk to an expert firm such as GRA, who have been recently awarded Corportae Trustee of the Year. They are consistently right up with the play and are very effective strategists for their clients,

          PS - no i dont work for them, i am a client of 3 years and i consistently recommend them

          Best of luck

          Comment

          • CJ
            Fanatical
            • Oct 2003
            • 3570

            #6
            Originally posted by Dean Letfus View Post
            Matthew has a mole inside government. These rules are not likely to come in till 01/04/10, they will be significantly narrowed and they will NOT be retrospective.
            From what I have heard, the suggestion is for AP rules to apply from 1/4/10 EXCEPT as it applies for land transactions which will be the date of enactment, expected in July.

            Comment

            • Rosco
              Fanatical
              • May 2007
              • 3710

              #7
              Hi all,

              It is really difficult to advise or help on this subject as it still hasn't become law yet. Until it does, no one knows exactly what is in there or what last minute changes may or may not happen.

              Also watch comments that are not necessarily fact. For example the revenue minister is proposing that the enactment date gets delayed, but that doesn't mean it will happen that way!

              The three person test (sorry couldn't think how to spell the real term) will catch pretty much everyone. So if you trade or develop, all future long term holds that are purchased will be tainted and taxable if sold within 10 years. So all current long term holds that are not tainted, will NOT be affected, it is just future long term holds.

              There could be some ways around the new association person tests in theory, but I don't think these are very pratical and it would mean risking giving away control.

              A really easy way of breaking the rules is by using 5 people. So if a development company is set up with 5 unrelated, 20% shareholders. It will not taint the individuals as they own under 25%. If one shareholder is the husband, and one shareholder is the wife, this would be viewed as 40%, so that they would be tainted.

              One idea you could use if you are going to be tainted under new rules, would be to buy as many long term holds in your non tainted entity before the new rules take effect which sounds like it will be August/September or whenever the government feels like it.

              Ross
              Book a free chat here
              Ross Barnett - Property Accountant

              Comment

              • GL&CR
                Freshie
                • Apr 2009
                • 6

                #8
                Originally posted by typhoon View Post
                Gday Grant & Cheryl - i strongly recommend you talk to an expert firm such as GRA...

                PS - no i dont work for them, i am a client of 3 years and i consistently recommend them
                Thanks typhoon, I did the RichMastery course and GRA were one of the companies in a presentation regarding company structures. We haven't dealt with them as yet but from what I learned, they certainly know the game and plan to have them on board in the near future.

                Originally posted by CJ View Post
                From what I have heard, the suggestion is for AP rules to apply from 1/4/10 EXCEPT as it applies for land transactions which will be the date of enactment, expected in July.
                Sorry CJ, a little confused as to what you mean. We interpret it as any land purchased before this date for the purposes of development will be tainted, is this correct?
                Thanks

                Originally posted by Rosco View Post
                Hi all,

                It is really difficult to advise or help on this subject as it still hasn't become law yet. Until it does, no one knows exactly what is in there or what last minute changes may or may not happen.

                Also watch comments that are not necessarily fact. For example the revenue minister is proposing that the enactment date gets delayed, but that doesn't mean it will happen that way!

                The three person test (sorry couldn't think how to spell the real term) will catch pretty much everyone. So if you trade or develop, all future long term holds that are purchased will be tainted and taxable if sold within 10 years. So all current long term holds that are not tainted, will NOT be affected, it is just future long term holds.....

                Ross
                Thanks Ross.

                So we can still do both (development and buy and hold) as long as the rentals/buy and holds are owned by our company for more than 10 years? This has always been the "unwritten" rules Ive been told...

                Regards
                Grant & Cheryl

                Comment

                • CJ
                  Fanatical
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 3570

                  #9
                  Originally posted by GL&CR View Post
                  Sorry CJ, a little confused as to what you mean. We interpret it as any land purchased before this date for the purposes of development will be tainted, is this correct?
                  Thanks
                  The associated persons rules apply to more than just land. In general the new associated persons rules will apply for 1/4/10. HOWEVER, for land purposes, the new rules are expected to apply from the date of enactment (July 09??).

                  Anything bought before that date the current rules will apply to. After the date of enactment, the new rules will apply. After that date, it will be very difficult to avoid tainting but all you existing properties should be fine (subject to current rules).

                  Normally I would recommend you go see an expert but until the new draft legislation is announced, you will be wasting your money as no one knows the final form. Someone will post on this forum when it is announced if you miss it in the mainstream news.

                  Comment

                  • GL&CR
                    Freshie
                    • Apr 2009
                    • 6

                    #10
                    Thanks CJ for clearing that up and like you say, no point spending money until it becomes implemented.

                    Comment

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