Trading Trust

[sooty]

Hi everybody, How long does it take to setup a trading trust and register for gst. How much does it cost.

[krispedersen]

Hi Sooty,

From memory approx $2k,

I recommend strongly that you give Garth at Company Solutions a call. If you want other references I recommend searching THIS site, you'll find a lot of people have high opinions of his (and Peter's) work.

https://www.company-solutions.co.nz

or phone (09)489 9120

Cheers

[xris]

$2,000 to set up a trust?

Try zero to $1,000.

xris

[Josko]

$2,800.00 was the quote from Company Solutions, a Trust with a corporate Trustee. After the $370.00 for a consultation.

I opted for a Corporate Trustee Trust with the accountant for $650.00 as I have no complicated matters to contend with.

Trading Trust is something different and Company Silutions specialises in this area.

[whitt]

$2,000 to set up a trust?

Try zero to $1,000.

xris

There was a discussion here a while back on a similar thing.
The difference between a specialist property accountant VS regular accountant.

Yes a standard lawyer may be able to provide a product at a much lower price but they are unlikely to have the expertise in this area.

[Cookie]

worth every penny I think to pay what it takes and know you have got it 100% right. I went up from Christchurch to Garth at Company Solutions and can highly recommend his services. In the end it could cost thousands if you get it wrong just to save a few dollars.

[Josko]

I would qualify that if you have a complicated asset structure, including businesses with immediate beneficiaries you would be best to go to GRA or Company Solutions, however if you are after a Trust where you have no complicated issues to contend with a Trust document for your Buy and Holds or a Wealth Trust is a simple document to establish and can be done through half a decent Accountant or Lawyer.

[David_W]

Paying under $1,000 for a trading trust - you are likely to get a lame structure that probably even taints you personally from trading.

The fees should range from $2,000 - $4,000 for a top notch trading trust, that you owe to yourself to get for properties that you are trading.

[CJ]

Paying under $1,000 for a trading trust - you are likely to get a lame structure that probably even taints you personally from trading.

I though the structure itself was quite simple?? My guess is more than half the ones made are off the self templates which just need minor tweaking (this still needs to be done and done right, dont get me wrong)

I would have though $1-2k sounds about right though.

[Traff]

Hi Guys

I rate my solicitor 100% and have just had him set up a trading trust and company for me for less than a $1k. I'm filing the paperwork myself for the GST and IRD side of it. If you want to know who he is PM me but i usually know pretty quickly who i should and shouldn't be dealing with and this guy gets the thumbs up!!!!


Shazza

[xris]

I thought I’d get my teeth into this topic before carrying on with yet more of the endless painting this morning.

It has been discussed before, by me and others, but it is worth repeating I think. That is that there is no special reason to deify particular people acting in any given field. I have a plumber I think is great. He is reliable, polite, goes the extra mile, and is not particularly expensive (note the his hourly rate is not my main reason for using him). But, there will be many others out there who do just as good a job. The same thing goes for accountants and lawyers. You will find the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Some will specialise which is only natural. But some aspects of law and accounting are pretty standard and simple. Any accountant should be able to file your GST returns or incorporate a company: any lawyer should be able to act as a conveyancer in the sale of an average house. But, if you have a ten million dollar company operating off-shore and selling IT then you would be better off using an accountant and lawyer with more specialist knowledge in that field. Isn’t that just commonsense?

Now, back to the topic.

Setting up a trust and/or a company is basic stuff. You can easily do it yourself. What I gather is that for many people they want nothing more than an LAQC and or a ‘family’ trust. You do not need to see a specialist to do that. If you want to dabble in trading/developing then you would be wise to seek more specialist advice. Again commonsense. But there are plenty of lawyers and accountants who could do this if you look for them. Company Solutions and GRA are not the only ones. Again, commonsense and obvious. Because they might be at the top of there profession in the area of property structuring, then if you are into property in a big way then they may be the people to see. But for your average mum and dad?

Let’s pick on a couple of people.

Q worth every penny I think to pay what it takes and know you have got it 100% right. I went up from Christchurch to Garth at Company Solutions and can highly recommend his services. In the end it could cost thousands if you get it wrong just to save a few dollars. (cookie)

Unless cookie is into this in a big way (and even then…), what possible reason has s/he got for flying up to Auckland just to set up a structure. What is wrong with Christchurch lawyers and accountants? And how does cookie know they are worth every penny? Because they and others have told cookie so, of course. And based on what does cookie recommend Garth's services? Bottomless coffee throughout the meeting? He’s expensive so he must be good? He told me he is good so I believe him? I cannot admit to myself that I have wasted an airfare and accommodation costs and spent $6,000 to set up a couple of trusts and a company when I could have done it in Christchurch for $2,500? How does cookie know that they got it 100% right? Because they told her so and cookie believes all the adulation of them supplied by some on this site. “In the end it could cost thousands if you get it wrong”. True, but there again it has already cost you many thousands; you still do not know if you have got it right (although you convince yourself that you do know); and you pre-suppose that if you had gone elsewhere you would have got it wrong; and you also assume that if you had got it wrong the IRD would come after you. Assumption, assumption and assumption.

Q Paying under $1,000 for a trading trust - you are likely to get a lame structure that probably even taints you personally from trading.

The fees should range from $2,000 - $4,000 for a top notch trading trust, that you owe to yourself to get for properties that you are trading. (fuzo)

Most of my above comments apply here too. I am a little surprised at this remark though: you are likely to get a lame structure that probably even taints you personally from trading. I would call this scare mongering, not advice.

Now to conclude, I am not in any way saying that GRE and CS are bad. Quite the contrary. I believe they are probably at the top of their field of expertise, and if you are anything but a 'mum and dad (I hate that term but it is useful), and you live in Auckland, they may well be worth a call.

If you do want to set up even a basic structure I do suggest you get professional advice, for a number of reasons, unless you really do know what you are doing. But just think for a minite and get things in perspective before you jump on a plane grasping a toothbrush and cheque book.

I also freely admit that there are many poor quality lawyers and accountants around whose advice you should be wary of taking. For that reason you should be a little wary of whom you use.

But overall, just think about what you are doing, what you want to achieve and tailor your plans accordingly. Would you instruct a QC to sell your average suburban house?

xris

[whitt]

But overall, just think about what you are doing, what you want to achieve and tailor your plans accordingly. Would you instruct a QC to sell your average suburban house?

Nice summary Xris. Your post says it all.

There are always several ways to acheive an end result in property investing. Choose a way which is suitable to your own situation.

[Perry]

Does anyone know (has anyone tried) Trusts On-line for
this type of work? Or are they not 'into' trading Trusts?

[NZGEMS]

I still give Garth the thumbs up, I recently had to open a new trading trust for my developing and asked my accountant they pointed me to Garth to be sure we had it all right, of course I pay someone else to do all the gst and ird stuff i think the cost was just under $2k with GST which of course is claimable.

[cube]

Does anyone know (has anyone tried) Trusts On-line for
this type of work? Or are they not 'into' trading Trusts?

I use them for administering our Family Trust, which was set up by GRA, but I don't think that their documentation is particularly sophisticated, and would be wary of using one of their Trust Deeds without getting advice from someone more knowledgeable.

The problem is, xris, that because Trusts have been around for centuries, there is significant precedence available in case law for them to be influenced by. Although a 'basic' trust formed from a template may well be fine, it may be possible to get a 'stronger' trust by using someone who really does specialise in the area.

For example, GRA explained how it was important for a Trust Deed and associated documents to include particular clauses that ensure that creditors cannot easily call in the loan from the settlors to the trust (forcing sale of the family home). This is something that may or may not be included in anyone's documents, but would 'Mum and Dad' know if they were missing?

cube