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The benefits of Positvely Geared Property

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  • muppet
    Banned
    • Sep 2003
    • 10593

    #1

    The benefits of Positvely Geared Property

    Hi Guys

    Another thought provoking article liberated from another forum.(thanks Redwing.)

    NOT SO TAXING

    A positively geared property has a lot going for it. Peter Weekes explains.

    Forget the myth; statistics don't lie. Most people lose money on property. The last national snapshot of residential property investors by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, in 1997, found that less than 30 per cent made a profit in 1995-96; 11 per cent broke even; and 36 per cent made a loss. The rest simply didn't know.

    Steve McKnight, author of From 0 to 130 Properties in 3.5 Years, says most investors are taking a punt on price growth putting them well into the black when they sell their investment property.
    Still, in the last 22 years Melbourne property prices have only increased substantially in eight of those years - five of which were when interest rates were at historic lows. In the remaining 14 years prices either went sidewards or edged up only slightly, McKnight says, adding that the situation is similar in most other capital cities.

    "Sure, some people have made money, but they have made it over the last five years," he says. "But most property investors are in there for the long haul."

    McKnight and fellow author Jan Somers, whose books include More Wealth from Residential Property, say the reason most people fail to make money in property is their misdirected obsession with tax.
    "I can't understand why anyone would go into negative gearing as a long-term strategy," McKnight says. "People do it under the guise of saving tax, but it actually keeps them poor."


    A property is negatively geared when the cost of holding it, including interest on the loan, exceeds rental income. That is, it produces a running loss when all income and costs are taken into account.
    The significance of this loss is that it is tax deductible against any other assessable income you may have. This has the effect or reducing your tax bill, especially if you are on a higher marginal rate.
    "Negative gearing is about borrowing money to lose money, while positive gearing is about borrowing money to make money," says McKnight.

    Positive gearing's bedfellow, positive cash flow investing, has been around since the first tenant received his keys. It has largely been overlooked, says Somers, because third parties, like property seminar spruikers, can't make money out of it.

    The concept itself is relatively simple. Positive cash flow simply means that you have more money coming in from a rental property than is going out. That is, the rent covers all costs, including the mortgage, insurance, interest, etc.

    Also, there will usually be a large number of items that you can claim depreciation on, and as this is ideally already covered by the rent, the tax break becomes tax back in your pocket.
    Whether a particular property generates a positive cash flow depends on many things: rental income, the interest rate, allowable deductions and your own marginal tax rate.

    Both McKnight and Somers concede finding that property may be difficult in a booming market, but they do exist.
    "It's a matter of matching the right property, with the right person, with the right strategy," says McKnight.

    Most of these "right" properties are found in outer suburban and rural areas. Most investors, she says, tend to look for properties where prices are already strong, such as inner-city apartments. "However, that means the rent, in proportion to the property's value, is very low.
    "In that case you are either negatively geared or have a negative cash flow. You [must] keep paying money in the expectation that in 20 years the money that you make will [make up for it]."

    Somers says young people making a start in adult life and those nearing retirement should consider opting for positive cash flow rather than negative gearing.
    "It depends on where they are in their life cycle as to which is better," she says.
    "Young people starting out should go for cheaper high-yielding low-growth properties. As people move into higher incomes they could look to higher-growth low-yielding property, as they have the income to support it. As they get closer to retirement, the income from their jobs is [about] to stop, so they should switch to higher-yielding properties that will give them the income for retirement."

    Author Margaret Lomas says the secret of investing wisely in property does not lie in negative gearing, as many Australians believe. It lies in being able to approach the investment process with a business mind, being astute and relentless, and calculating the bottom line costs and net cash positions.

    And remember, just because it is bricks and mortar does not make it a moneyspinner. Time cannot always make up for a poor investment decision.

    How to recognise a positive cashflow property

    In her book How to Make Your Money Last as Long as You Do, Margaret Lomas says positively geared properties are easy to spot. Simply estimate the potential income (remembering it may be vacant for at least a couple of weeks a year), then add up all the costs, including potential repairs. When you subtract the expenses from the income and the balance is positive, reduce it by your top marginal tax rate.

    The remaining figure will be the amount of positive cash flow.

    However, positive cash flow where the property has an on-paper loss, and so extra tax is not payable, can be harder to calculate, Lomas says. She provides the following formula in her book:

    1. Add your current taxable income to your rental return to get your new gross income.
    2. New gross income less expenses and depreciation equals your new taxable income.
    3. Calculate the tax on the new taxable income.
    4. New gross income less expenses less tax on new taxable income equals your new net income.

    Better than managed funds

    Barbara Smith knows all about tax. She is, after all, the technical director of Taxpayers Australia. But 33 years ago she was a young, lowly paid bookkeeper wanting to supplement her weekly income.

    The solution came in the form of a cash-flow-positive property. From very tentative beginnings as an investor with a property worth $5800 in 1970, Smith now has a handful of apartments, which she is still adding to.

    "I was a much more conservative investor in those days," she says. "I was on a fairly low wage, working as a bookkeeper, and it seemed to make sense to me to try and get more from investments.

    "I was looking for positive cash flow property. There was no way in those days that I would have ever invested using negative gearing. Even today I would be quite loathe to use it unless I could see some positive cash flow in a short time."

    Her aversion to negative gearing is simple: all you are doing is relying on capital gain sometime in the future, and if you don't get that gain you are paying money to the taxman or the bank. Of her portfolio of properties, all have positive cash flow except for one, which breaks even.
    "I own three residential properties in the CBD. I looked for small properties at the bottom of the market that would return high rent. I've found those are the best investments I've got," Smith says. "I didn't look for expensive properties.

    "The rent has crept up over the years, and the properties have performed much better than a managed fund investment I made at the same time."

    One studio apartment, which cost her $85,000 in 1994, now returns $215 a week. She says these properties, bought off-the-plan, also bring other rewards for "a woman who doesn't want to carry out much maintenance

    Regards
  • orion
    Fanatical
    • Dec 2003
    • 1750

    #2
    I guess Jan Somers must have seen the light since writing her book "Building Wealth" when she was highly in favour of negative gearing.

    One thing they didn't mention in the article is that you can make any property positively geared by putting in a larger deposit when you buy. With the prices the way the are now in most areas, it simply means increasing your deposit by several thousand dollars each time you buy a property to make them neutral or positive. The other major factor of course that affects this is the term of the loan (P & I only).

    Graeme Fowler
    Facebook Property Chat Group NZ
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/340682962758216/

    Comment

    • donna
      Administrator
      • Aug 2003
      • 10069

      #3
      does anyone know if one can claim a loss on a rental property in Aus against an NZ income?

      I have a rental property that up to now has been benefical by reducing my tax rate from 48% to 28% by a variation of tax - for reasons mentioned in previous posts on this thread (interest payments exceed rental income).

      What I need to find out is - if I move to NZ can I claim a similar position with the NZ IRD?

      cheers.

      Donna
      Email Sign Up - New Discussions, Monthly Newsletter, About PropertyTalk


      BusinessBlogs - the best business articles are found here

      Comment

      • Marcus
        Fanatical
        • Jun 2005
        • 1453

        #4
        Hi Graeme,

        I was similarly surprised to hear Dolf De Roos ask " Why buy negative geard property?" at a seminar in 2002. My jaw nearly hit the floor. It quickly became apparent that Dolf (like many others) had ditched the negative gearing gravy train. He went on to ask why would anyone choose to pay out $10 to claim back $3, rather than recieve $10 and pay out $3.

        Yes it is easy to make a property positive geared by throwing extra money at it, but having the extra money to throw is my problem.

        So for me and many others, I guess the tricky bit is finding properties that are PG @ 100% finance in the current market without having to sacrifice the standard of property or location.

        Can and have done this in the "slump" but not during the boom.

        Regards.

        Comment

        • orion
          Fanatical
          • Dec 2003
          • 1750

          #5
          Hi Marcus,

          Yes, Dolf is another that has changed his opinions on negative gearing in the last few years, but we are all entitled to do that.

          Yes it is easy to make a property positive geared by throwing extra money at it, but having the extra money to throw is my problem.

          So for me and many others, I guess the tricky bit is finding properties that are PG @ 100% finance in the current market without having to sacrifice the standard of property or location.
          Unfortunately many investors are doing the same thing Marcus, buying only properties that are neutral or positivey geared in today's market. To find these type of properties now, you are gererally limited to either large blocks of flats, run down houses, small towns or the war zone areas that are in every city. Buying these type of properties makes being a landlord no fun at all. There are investors I know who have 5 properties or less and they are a real headache for them, tenants constantly moving, not paying rent, damaging property etc etc etc. It is a major waste of their time. I manage all but 3 of my 58 properties and it takes me no more than about 2 hours a week to look after them, yet people with less than 5 properties often will spend far longer than this each week managing them.

          Not having the money to put in to make better quality properties positively geared is the area I would be focusing on. If you are an experienced investor, you may be able to do some quick cash deals to raise the deposits (in a different entity of course). If not, you may have a business that has a good cashflow that you put an amount into 'deposit savings' each week. If you have a job that doesn't pay that well, look for ways to increase your income by writing down and setting income target goals. Many investors want to go full time into property way before they are ready to, they want it to happen quickly. Property is not generally a get rich 'quick' plan, it is a get rich 'over the long term' plan.

          Graeme Fowler
          Facebook Property Chat Group NZ
          https://www.facebook.com/groups/340682962758216/

          Comment

          • Marcus
            Fanatical
            • Jun 2005
            • 1453

            #6
            Ah, I now see you have answered some of my questions from the other thread. Thanks.

            To find these type of properties now, you are gererally limited to either large blocks of flats, run down houses, small towns or the war zone areas that are in every city. Buying these type of properties makes being a landlord no fun at all.
            I agree 100% and some! I have avoided these types of IP's for that reason.

            Until recently I was able to pick up IP's in good areas that just broke even or were slightly positive geared. This was helped by the fact I was able to buy under RV. The instant paper profits allowed me to buy again, and again but the market has changed now (temporarily) and deals like these are "Hens teeth".

            The gains I have experienced on these is pretty damn hot so LVR should not be an issue with any banks I use. CF is what I am having to focus on now. (I would like the banks to stop using my income to assess debt serviceability so my portfolio income needs to be high enough to act as a buffer should some of my properties fall vacant for a period, Despite the fact I have not had any vacant weeks (appart from time spent repairing and or improving immediately after aquiring, prior to letting) in four years of investing.

            As you mention "Quick cash deals" (QCD's) are a definite option but I may have missed the boat this time round. I don't want to get caught withsomething I am not prepared to hold.

            What types of property in particular do you target as QCD properties?

            Kind Regards,
            Marcus.

            Comment

            • donna
              Administrator
              • Aug 2003
              • 10069

              #7
              Graeme,

              You've just helped me too....you may have seen in an earlier response where I was asking about getting tax relief on Aus. property with an NZ income - well, having just read your post my mind is made up - I'm going to load some $$ into my negatively geared property here in Melbourne so I can make it neutral before I move to NZ.

              I thought if I can't get a variation of tax on the property I'd sell it (something I don't want to do with any IP's at the moment) but as you are saying - better to make the 'better quality properties' positively geared. So many thanks for your invaluable thoughts and knowledge



              Donna
              Email Sign Up - New Discussions, Monthly Newsletter, About PropertyTalk


              BusinessBlogs - the best business articles are found here

              Comment

              • Marcus
                Fanatical
                • Jun 2005
                • 1453

                #8
                Originally posted by orion
                Not having the money to put in to make better quality properties positively geared is the area I would be focusing on. If you are an experienced investor, you may be able to do some quick cash deals to raise the deposits (in a different entity of course).
                Would a tust protect me sufficiently, so as to not "taint" me (trustee) as a speculator or developer?

                If so, how do I use capital produced by these QCD's to reduce mortgages on my buy and hold properties without waving a flag to the IRD?

                or

                Does the IRD consider these transactions a re-distrbution of capital for minimising exposure to risk (potential increase of interest rates etc).

                or

                Do you do the QCD's in an entity till enough depsit is raised, pay tax on these, and then use the remainder as a deposit on IP's for that entity?

                or

                am I getting this all wrong???

                Thanks (again) in advance,

                Kind regards,
                Marcus.

                Comment

                • orion
                  Fanatical
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 1750

                  #9
                  Hi Marcus,

                  Personally I use three entities in property - one is for the wraps, one is for buy and selling (QCDs), and one is for buy and holds, the latter is a trust, the other two are companies. You would be best to talk to an experienced professional whose expertise is in the area of asset protection and have them look at your own current situation and also where you want to be. I have heard Garth Melville is such a person who specialises in this area, although I do not have any direct experience with him. My lawyer who also specialises in asset protection and entities is in Wellington.
                  If you are producing income from QCDs, you will be paying tax on this. It doesn't matter to the IRD what you do with what's left, after they take their hard earned slice. Whether you put it towards another property as your deposit, reduce debt on another property, or buy a new car, that is entirely up to you, as is any income that you earn.

                  Regards
                  Graeme Fowler
                  Facebook Property Chat Group NZ
                  https://www.facebook.com/groups/340682962758216/

                  Comment

                  • Marcus
                    Fanatical
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 1453

                    #10
                    Thanks for clearing that up for me Graeme (was much simpler than I thought).

                    With the running the CQD's from a company I was under the impression that IRD could argue that I as Director of company "X" could be tainted thus affecting any other company I am Director of.
                    Is this why you hold your buy/holds in a trust?

                    Regards,
                    Marcus.

                    ps Accountant- jump in if you please. Your input in the forums would be much appreciated

                    Comment

                    • orion
                      Fanatical
                      • Dec 2003
                      • 1750

                      #11
                      Hi Marcus,

                      Not sure on the answer to that one, ie whether you can do it in a separate company, or if one has to be a trust. I can find out tomorrow if you want me to, unless someone else here knows.
                      You run the risk of tainting if you do any quick cash deals in the same entity as your buy and holds, even one. The same would apply for people with properties in their own name as rentals, and doing any buy & sells as far as I am aware. I am definitely no fountain of knowledge in this area though Marcus, so check it out with those that are.

                      Regards
                      Graeme Fowler
                      Facebook Property Chat Group NZ
                      https://www.facebook.com/groups/340682962758216/

                      Comment

                      • AustinWong
                        Forum Junkie
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 475

                        #12
                        Hi Muppet,

                        You previously had in your post at the top


                        "Young people starting out should go for cheaper high-yielding low-growth properties.

                        What does this actually mean in plain english?

                        Thanks


                        Lawrence
                        How do you eat an Elephant?
                        One Bite at a Time!! (Source: Spaceman)

                        Comment

                        • cube
                          Thinking outside the square.
                          • Jun 2005
                          • 5076

                          #13
                          Young people tend to have lower incomes, therefore don't have the spare cash to subsidise a property through negative gearing, and wait for the capital growth to appear (if it ever does).

                          A safer 'bet' is to get a property that pays for itself (positive cash flow), so that it is an asses, putting money in their pocket day in day out.

                          Positive cashflow indicates a low(er) purchase price and a high(er) rent, resulting in a high(er) yield.

                          Trouble is that higher yield can mean more tenant issues - higher return = higher risk.

                          Hope this helps

                          cube
                          DFTBA

                          Comment

                          • AustinWong
                            Forum Junkie
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 475

                            #14
                            Hi Cube,

                            Thanks for the response.

                            There is so much information and so many views on gearing.

                            I am thinking that I would like to purchase in Hamilton East or Hillcrest, which are both in Hamilton City.

                            I think there is a good future for this area.

                            This may mean however that I have to negatively gear.

                            I am keen to get into the Hamilton market as property will only get more expensive there, and eventually I would plan to move there.

                            Is it sensible to buy a house that you may wish to live in say in 2 years? And rent it out in the meantime?

                            The house I own in Thames will then be a rental which should bring in a neutral or positive gear.

                            I am not too keen in buying in the not so good areas of Hamilton as this may attract unnecessary headaches.

                            Any feedback on this would be great.

                            Thanks


                            Lawrence
                            How do you eat an Elephant?
                            One Bite at a Time!! (Source: Spaceman)

                            Comment

                            • Vdoubleyou
                              Freshie
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 18

                              #15
                              Hi Lawrence,

                              I think Hamilton is also a good area, I am intending to move there next year and have started looking at properties. The areas which look good to me are Hamilton central, Hamilton east, Claudelands, Enderley & Hillcrest, I think there are still a fair few positive cashflow properties around. I also think Hamilton is undervalued.

                              You're not to far from me, I live in Whangamata.

                              Scott

                              Comment

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