Handling Tradesmen

[xris]

By special request from artemis here is an opener on handling tradesmen.

I certainly have no magic solution so I hope others may have a few ideas of their own.

Quite recently I obtained a court order against a tradesman. Without going into detail, it related to work done at a rental property which did not comply and so I had to have it re-done by another tradesman and then sending the bill to the first tradesmen. Needless to say, the first tradesman declined to pay, hence the involvement of the Court. The amount of money involved? Somewhere between a pittance and a trifle: my main motivating factor? Principle.

A pretty standard rule regarding tradesmen are:

If you get a good one, go out of your way to try to keep him.

One of my biggest gripes is when tradesmen do not have any idea of the basics of rented properties.

Turning up on site unannounced or at the wrong time is common practice for many.

They often have no idea about who is the customer (ie the landlord not the tenant).

Some things that have occurred to me.

Tradesmen telling tenant about where I live and other personal information, as if the tenant was merely a good friend or family member of mine.

Tenants taking time off work to meet tradesman on site and tradesman not turning up as pre-arranged.

I once had a plumber – called out to fix a couple of dripping bath taps – replace all the taps in the house because the tenant asked him to while he was there. You can imagine the problems that occurred when I received the bill.

Bills being sent to the tenants.

The list goes on.

Having said all this, I have a number of tradesmen who are not like this and they get my continued business and get paid very quickly without any quibbling by me.

Well, this was just an opening dig. I have other stories and ideas, just as others no doubt have. Does anybody have a fail-safe way of dealing with tradesmen and rental properties?

xris

[Dean@Massiveaction]

The amount of money involved? Somewhere between a pittance and a trifle: my main motivating factor? Principle.

I would suggest that perhaps IP is not the perfect vehicle for you if this is how you react in this situation. Far less stressful to have an abundance mentality in my opinion. The dishonest tradesman will reap what he sows. You will achieve more by focusing on positively going forward than drawing negative energy like this around yourself IMHO

[cube]

Assuming a tradesman has been booked reasonably in advance (not always possible), call 3 days out and the day before to confirm the details (especially if its a new tradesman).

Meeting them on site is always good if you can manage it - makes sure that the time element of the bill is accurate.

Pay the good ones without quibbling. I got a call from the tenant on Christmas Day (!) about a leaking dishwasher pipe, called my plumber who was on holiday in another part of the country who called a mate who was still in town who fixed the problem on Boxing day!

'Standard' call out fees etc applied, but did I mind paying - not a bit, because I was in another part of the country enjoying my holiday!

cube

[Aston]

If you get a good one, go out of your way to try to keep him.

AGREED.

One of my biggest gripes is when tradesmen do not have any idea of the basics of rented properties.

AGREED… BUT IT’S YOUR JOB, AS LANDLORD/MANAGER TO EDUCATE THEM.

Turning up on site unannounced or at the wrong time is common practice for many.

TRADESMEN ARE BUSY PEOPLE AND THEY OFTEN DON’T/CAN’T STICK TO THEIR SCHEDULE.

They often have no idea about who is the customer (ie the landlord not the tenant).

AGREED… BUT IT’S YOUR JOB, AS LANDLORD/MANAGER TO EDUCATE THEM.

Tradesmen telling tenant about where I live and other personal information, as if the tenant was merely a good friend or family member of mine.

AGREED… BUT IT’S YOUR JOB, AS LANDLORD/MANAGER TO EDUCATE THEM.

Tenants taking time off work to meet tradesman on site and tradesman not turning up as pre-arranged.

THIS CAN BE A TRICKY ONE BUT THE TRADESMAN IS NOT JUST THE PROBLEM HERE, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT THE TENANT DOESN’T TURN UP.

I once had a plumber – called out to fix a couple of dripping bath taps – replace all the taps in the house because the tenant asked him to while he was there. You can imagine the problems that occurred when I received the bill.

THE LANDLORD/MANAGER IS THE RESPONSIBLE ONE HERE TO HAVE ALLOWED THE TRADESMAN TO BE PLACED IN THAT SITUATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Bills being sent to the tenants.

LANDLORD/ MANAGERS RESPONSIBILITY.



I’M NOT BEING DEVIL’S ADVOCATE HERE AND I’M TRYING TO REMAIN POSITIVE BUT THE TRADESMAN/WOMAN IS EMPLOYED TO DO A JOB…… HE/SHE JUST WANTS TO GET ON AND DO IT BECAUSE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT HE/SHE HAS ANOTHER DOZEN JOBS THAT HAVE TO BE DONE ON THAT DAY ALSO.

I KNOW THERE ARE SOME RATBAG TRADSEMEN/WOMEN OUT THERE BUT THERE ARE ALSO SOME DAMN GOOD ONES. WE NEED TO BE MORE SUPPORTIVE AND UNDERSTANDING OF THESE PEOPLE. DON’T SET THEM UP…. DON’T ALLOW THEM TO BE PLACED IN A COMPROMISING POSITION… LOOK AFTER THESE GUYS, IF YOU FIND A GOOD ONE.... HANG ON TO HIM, IF YOU FIND A BAD ONE... MOVE ON, IF YOU FIND A CROOK TAKE HIM TO THE CLEANERS.

[leapy]

Dear Pooomba,

One instance of seeking redress for shoddy workmanship can hardly be construed as demonstrative that property investment is thus an imperfect investment vehicle for xris.

Maybe this is the sort of situation that xris finds more educative and empowering, than stressful. Perhaps it is an indicator to qualities such as an attention to detail and well-developed problem-solving skills that may serve xris exceptionally well.

Your comment might demonstrate to me that your "abundance mentality" does not extend to generous acceptance that property investors can choose to function in different ways to you, but still be very successful investors.

[Dean@Massiveaction]

I guess my point leapy was that if we spend a lot of time and money on pittances it can rob us of energy to pursue positive things. But you're quite right, each to his own. I have seen many people get out of investing by majoring on minors and getting hung up on small things so that is what is behind my comments. I want to encourage people TO invest and be POSITIVE and move FORWARD.

[drelly]

Aston, I think you're being a bit harsh on Xris. We use Trademen (tradespeople?) for their skills, knowledge and professionalism. If I ask someone to go and fix a tap at a rental and they are monumentally stupid enough to replace all the taps at the tenants request, breach my privacy and invoice the wrong person, then they need to educate themselves. It's sure not my job! I don't think any business owner should have to be educated by their clients... it's them that is meant to be providing the service!

[Aston]

Aston, I think you're being a bit harsh on Xris.

Drelly,

My response was never intended to be critical of Xris but more trying to be a little understanding and sympathetic of the tradespersons point of view.

I used to be a tradesperson and it's hard to keep everybody happy, On the one hand you're trying to keep the PM happy and on the other hand your trying to keep the Tenant happy and on the other hand you've got to keep the Landlord happy........ and hell... a tradesman's only got two hands.

Aston

[Propoholic]

Ensuring there is a minimum level of written communication (especially prior to the start of work and giving contractor order for work) is essential whether the maintenance is a small, medium or large project. The benefits of this are as follows:-

1. Provides a written record of what has been agreed between the owner and contractor. This may be two sentences or a number of pages depending on size of job. The important aspect here is that the owner is establishing a paper trail for the situation where there is a dispute, misunderstanding or remedy required for faulty workmanship.

2.This sets a tone of transparency for your relationship with the contractor. Most good contractors will appreciate a level of communication in writing, it highlights the level of professionalism you expect of them.

3.Contractors will generally respond better to and have 'more' respect for commmunications that are in writing. Verbal agreements are of course softer and provide plenty of room for abuse.

4. A few sentences can cover terms of contract (fixed price, hourly rate etc) ie 'Please proceed with painting work at 15 Brown St as per your quotation and specification of 19/4/2006. Finish quality shall be as for painting work viewed at 27 Brown St (present: Jim Jones, John Smith) on 10/4/2006. All rubbish to be removed from site. As discussed, you will complete all work by 29/4/2006. The new tenant will move into the premises on Tuesday 2nd May 2006.'

5. Often there will be changes agreed between yourself and the contractor prior to or during the contract period. It is wise to record these changes/additions on a fax/email. eg 'As discussed on site today, please modify paint specification for wall colour:- delete Dulux clotted creme & add Dulux oyster white. The tiler will be starting next Tuesday (instead of Wednesday), you have confirmed the painting will be completed by this Saturday. The new tenant will be moving in next Thursday.'

6. Put programmes of work (time lines) in writing, especially when its a tight time frame and a number of contractors are involved eg 'John, as discussed, the attached programme of work has been agreed for the next two weeks':-

1/5/06 - 2/5/06: John Tiler to tile bathroom floor
3/5/06: ABC carpenters & Pacific Plumbing to install bathroom vanity
4/5/06 - 11/5/06: Perfect Painters Ltd to paint interior of flat
12/5/06: John Tiler to tile strip on bathroom wall above vanity
12/5/06: Carefree Carpets Ltd install new carpet
16/5/06: new tenant moves in

A simple time line helps to tie contractors down, they have agreed to the dates you are proposing and can see that other contractors, the tenant and owner are reliant on their work being completed on time.

A couple of sentences emailed /faxed to your contractor once a week doesnt take much time but is worth its weight in gold. I suppose we are talking about completing due diligence/housekeeping for our contract management tasks, a few minutes spent each week will increase your positive outcomes.

Just a few thoughts!

[AustinWong]

I am with Drelly and Propoholic,

I sent a crystal clear written instruction to my electrician, with detailed drawings and the #$&@( still got it wrong. The manager tried making excuses about not receiving the second page of the fax which had a drawing. He had to acknowledge they were wrong when I pointed out that the first page had all the info they needed. And what idiot goes out to the job when they know they are missing a page of a fax trransmission. They should sort their crap out and call the client.

I am absolutely sick of wiping the bottoms of contractors and trades people who are paid for a proffession for which they do a very average job. If I had the time I would do the whole maintenance thing myself and be rest assured it has been done correctely.

Damn straight they have to keep the client happy, or what are we paying for?

[xris]

Hello Aston,

I think I need to follow your advice and do a bit of educating.

I once had a plumber – called out to fix a couple of dripping bath taps – replace all the taps in the house because the tenant asked him to while he was there. You can imagine the problems that occurred when I received the bill.

THE LANDLORD/MANAGER IS THE RESPONSIBLE ONE HERE TO HAVE ALLOWED THE TRADESMAN TO BE PLACED IN THAT SITUATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I find it difficult to believe that you made this comment seriously. What position are you talking about? If the tenant asks the tradesman to do extra work the tradesman says ‘Get your landlord to arrange it’ or ‘OK, that will cost you $200.’ That’s it.




Bills being sent to the tenants.

LANDLORD/ MANAGERS RESPONSIBILITY.

What possible reason have you got for saying this? It is totally wrong assuming of course that the landlord has given an address for the bill which he invariably has.

…………………………


Let me spell it out. The tradesman is contracted to the person who asked him to do the job, invariably the landlord. He does not take instruction about that job from a third party, in this case the tenant.

Although as a tradesman you may not like to hear it, you have an obligation to have a basic understanding of how to do your job, and that includes more than just fitting a tap or wiring a house. It includes knowing how to read a map to get to the site; not taking food out of the fridge when you are there; having the correct tools on hand; and yes, knowing the basics of how tenancies work, such as tenants’ rights as occupants and landlords’ rights as clients. Tradesmen who do not know this should know this.

I am not talking about all tradesmen of course here. Many are first rate. I am referring to those who have an IQ of two, or those who simply don't give a damn. It is those who give tradesmen a poor reputation and give rise to endless stories of bad service. The more of those that can be weeded out the better for everyboby.

xris

[spurner]

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, you can tell them verbally and again even in writing but if they're a monkey they still won't follow instructions.

I recently gave a job to an electrician, provided the address, access, and job details, in writing. On the same piece of paper I clearly and specifically told them in writing to contact the tenants beforehand to notify them, and provided both tenants work and cellphone numbers.

The next day the tenants phoned me justifiably annoyed that they weren't notified about people going into their home.

At least I had myself covered in writing, and the job was finished within 24 hours !

[xris]

I agree that sometimes it does not matter what you do. But this is true in all walks of life. If people don’t care they don’t care.

I think that putting everything in writing, especially with tradesmen you have not used before, is an excellent idea, if only to cover yourself for anything that might happen further down the track, and even if it is time consuming.

A little thing I always do if I am acting as a middleman in arranging work at a rental is to ask the tenants for permission to pass on their phone number to tradesmen. Perhaps a little excessive but if nothing else it might go down well with the tenants, something along the lines of: “Oh look at that nice landlord, he cares about our privacy and treats us like normal human beings”. Same sort of thing as taking your shoes of before going in – within reason of course.

xris

[Propoholic]

Hi spurner

spurner wrote:

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, you can tell them verbally and again even in writing but if they're a monkey they still won't follow instructions.

That's the value of putting instructions in writing, you'll soon discover if the contractor has a weakness here. View it as a test, if the contractor is not prepared to step up to the bar (in the short term) then dont use them. If the contractor cant follow instructions for a small task then they certainly wont for your $5K, $10K or $20K job. This is your game, you make the rules, if they dont like the rules then they dont play your game.

spurner wrote:

I recently gave a job to an electrician, provided the address, access, and job details, in writing. On the same piece of paper I clearly and specifically told them in writing to contact the tenants beforehand to notify them, and provided both tenants work and cellphone numbers.

The next day the tenants phoned me justifiably annoyed that they weren't notified about people going into their home.

I generally prefer to organise access times & arrangements with the tenant & contractor so the whole process stays smooth and seamless! Some contractors arent quite so strong at communicating with tenants directly, you may find that they started proposing another date/time for access that didnt suit the tenant or the tenant chops and changes and suddenly the job hasnt progressed. However, I do have some contractors that have excellent communication with tenants and will advise me of any further communications/tenant requests eg tenant requested further work to be done beyond the innitial agreement.

If you have a good relationship with the tenant you should be able to communicate and organise matters better than a third party that doesnt have the same rapport.

[Oogabooga]

Whoa, calm down about tradesmen will ya?. Not all of us do a crap job and communicate poorly, fail to turn up on time etc, etc. I too have to deal with other trades so I do understand some of the complaints outlined here, however I don't consider the general level of "monkey" stupidity in the trades to be any greater than dealing with say.... the IRD (or any government agency) or those damn call centres.

Great site here by the way......I've learnt a lot in the last day or so.

Rob.