Photos on Tenant database

[BusyLizzy]

NEW FEATURE !!! We have now made it possible to load tenant photographs on TINZ. Next time you load a Tribunal order or 10 day notice or a general tenant rating, you will also be able to load an identification photo. It is interesting to note that the Courts are now requesting debt collection agencies to supply photographs of debtors, which along with D.O.B. make for a very positive identification.

This is from the latest TINZ newsletter. As a landlord, I think it's interesting. As a current tenant, I feel a bit uncomfortable - not that I ever intend to end up in the "bad tenant's" section, of course, but in their system you can give a rating (good or bad) to tenants. Even with a good rating, I don't want my pic being bandied about on the internet without me knowing about it.

What do others think?

I think TINZ provide a great service normally - but I'm not so sure about this concept!

[Monid]

I agree this would make me uncomfortable. I'm not keen on someone uploading a photo with out my consent, which will inevitably happen.

Cheers
David

[xris]

Here we go again. (For those interested search for my earlier comments on TINZ and their approach to tenancy issues.)

This really is a disgrace and I really do wish that someone would take legal action against TINZ for what they are doing.

Last month I had an excellent tenancy end. Young people who were pleasant, quiet and paid their rent. They had trouble with weeding so at Christmas I went round, had a friendly chat about the soon to end tenancy and jokingly pointed to the weeds, handed them a 10 day letter and told them they could do it or I'd get it done and it would come off the bond.

When the tenancy did end all the weeds were gone and the garden was in a better condition than when they moved in.

I thanked them, said they'd always get a good reference from me if any future LL wanted to phone me and I wished them well as I handed over a signed bond release form for a full refund (I'm not nice enough to pay for a stamp unless I have too).

Later at home I realised that I had in fact handed them a 10 day letter so back I rushed to the house as they were just driving away. They stopped in the middle of the street and opened the driver's side window. Out came my digital and click, click, click - faces with mouths open looking gormless and bemused peering out the open window. "Er, what...?" they stutterred. "You had a 10 day letter and as such you will be on the wanted list of BAD tenants for the WHOLE WORLD to see, forever!" "But what about our privacy rights and..." they splutterred?" "Don't bother me with such trivial nonsense I yelled as I ran back to my car".

xris

[drelly]

I agree with Xris on this. Taking a photo of a tenant for their file while you're their landlord (or chasing a debt) is one thing but publishing that photo on a list of "bad" tenants is a terrible breach of privacy.

[Jumpin]

Absolutely agree. TINZ are acting beyond the boundaries of fair play.

[xris]

Hello cube,

A more matter of fact answer to BL's request for opinion and advice would be as follows.

There is a very clear element of unfairness in what TINZ does. The receipt of a notice to rectify by any tenant does not in any way mean that the tenant is a bad tenant.

From a layman's position I have given you a perfectly good true example of the use of a 10 day letter for a LL's benefit that did not at all mean the tenant's were bad. I needed a tidy garden when advertising the place and showing new people through, and was happy to arrange for it myself. But to do this I needed to issue the 10 day notice first. If I had put these kids' photos on the internet for everyone to see as 'bad tenants' then I would have been acting grossly unfairly because they were not bad tenants at all.

We then look at this from a more legalistic angle. A tenant is not in breach of anything until the TT says he is. The tenant could be $2,000 in arrears and have had five 10-day notices issued against him but there is still no arrears in law until the TT says so by writing an order. LL's have to be very careful on this point and be aware of the legal position here and in related fields. Look at how Veda operate. Could you ever imagine them lodging a debt against a tenant without sighting a court TT order first and/or getting some sort of binding guarantee from the person lodging the debt with them? If they did they would be hung up to dry (if it were me that is, and many others too).

TINZ says they can get away with all this ?slanderous? invasion of privacy and malicious misrepresentation of people because they operate a private members only site. I am not sure of the legality of that but I believe legally they may be sailing close to the wind. Morally they have no defence that I can see.

I trust this post will be regarded as of more use than my earlier one which was a clearly failed attempt to say the same thing but with a touch of light-heartedness thrown in to brighten up everyone's blurry early morning eyes.

xris

[tallica1]

Photos On Tinz

Hi guys, there appears to be a lot of scaremongering going on, if not a lot ill advised comments, being posted to our latest endeavours to assist landlords and their agents to properly identify tenants. I answer as the Managing Director of Tenancy Information NZ.

I am also the Managing Director of Chase Investigative Agencies www.cia.co.nz. I presume this post will result in a lot of vitriole from more ill informed but I will state the reasoning behind our recent move to allow users to our secure website the ability to upload photos.

In Dec 2007 the Ministry of Justice sent letters to all rental industry stakeholders asking for photos and better identification of debtors (i.e. tenants that don't pay and have been ordered by a Public Court to pay arrears or reinstatement costs).

Those that have used TINZ will no know, (if not you can find them on the website), our terms and conditions and we hold our users to idemnify us that they are not being malicious in their use of the site AND the user will comply with the Privacy Act. This includes the user getting the tenant's permission for checking and lodging them on TINZ.

TINZ is not a list of people so that everyone can see them and their photos. Only very specific searches will recall very specific matches so you can not go on a "fishing trip" to look up anyone and everyone on the system. We can provide an audit trail back to the end user if they do a search or lodge people if they don't have the tenants permission.

That aside anyone can now search the Ministry of Justice website for a David Smith and get matches but without a photo how can you, if you are a David Smith, conclusively deny that you are not the "listed" David Smith on that website? Our website will eventually make it possible that this will result in better identification of the person concerned. If I was a David Smith, I cerntainly wouldn't want some other David Smith's debts on my tenant record! Especially since I am good tenant and the other ones are "bad" tenants.

[tallica1]

Hello cube,

A more matter of fact answer to BL's request for opinion and advice would be as follows.

There is a very clear element of unfairness in what TINZ does. The receipt of a notice to rectify by any tenant does not in any way mean that the tenant is a bad tenant.

From a layman's position I have given you a perfectly good true example of the use of a 10 day letter for a LL's benefit that did not at all mean the tenant's were bad. I needed a tidy garden when advertising the place and showing new people through, and was happy to arrange for it myself. But to do this I needed to issue the 10 day notice first. If I had put these kids' photos on the internet for everyone to see as 'bad tenants' then I would have been acting grossly unfairly because they were not bad tenants at all.

We then look at this from a more legalistic angle. A tenant is not in breach of anything until the TT says he is. The tenant could be $2,000 in arrears and have had five 10-day notices issued against him but there is still no arrears in law until the TT says so by writing an order. LL's have to be very careful on this point and be aware of the legal position here and in related fields. Look at how Veda operate. Could you ever imagine them lodging a debt against a tenant without sighting a court TT order first and/or getting some sort of binding guarantee from the person lodging the debt with them? If they did they would be hung up to dry (if it were me that is, and many others too).

TINZ says they can get away with all this ?slanderous? invasion of privacy and malicious misrepresentation of people because they operate a private members only site. I am not sure of the legality of that but I believe legally they may be sailing close to the wind. Morally they have no defence that I can see.

I trust this post will be regarded as of more use than my earlier one which was a clearly failed attempt to say the same thing but with a touch of light-heartedness thrown in to brighten up everyone's blurry early morning eyes.

xris

I am not sure whether you have considered whether TINZ is trying to offer a service based on fact not fairness.

10 Day notices are provided for under the Residential Tenancies Act when tenants are "in breach" of the tenancy agreement/contract to pay rent. They are enacted in law. At the time a landlord, or his agent, issues a 10 notice to the tenant, he can apply for termination of the tenancy agreement because of the breach/failure to comply.

This would mean that under Principle 11 of the Privacy Act the landlord/agent can disclose the breach to TINZ - see the clause (iv)(e) - "the matter is before a Court or is in reasonable contemplation".

We have never said that we believe we can get away with "slanderous? invasion of privacy and malicious misrepresentation of people" and we certainly do not believe we can, hence why we have TWICE voluntarily submitted the service to the Privacy Commission for review.

We do operate as a members only site as that is how we keep an audit trail of who's using the service so if either us or the Privacy Commission need to contact a user if they have breached our Terms and Conditions or the Privacy Act.

TINZ has been operating since 1998 and we have never had any problems with our service being in breach of a persons Privacy under the Privacy Act.

Hope this helps to ease some of the concerns people may have here. I would be happy to answer any querries of yours, however we do not appreciate people making rash comments without suitable research or advice. Please keep in mind we specialise in this industry and we are corncerned with getting things right.

[Caroliner]

Is there such a service for landlords? Before I became a landlord - I came a cross my share of very bad landlords and find it only fair that both sides are able to use this breach of privacy. As a landlord - I do not agree with what TINZ are doing and no reason makes it ok. Breach of privacy.

[xris]

Hello mr tinz,

We meet again.

Not sure if I have too much time to linger here tonight but let's kick off with a couple at least.

The average tenancy debt in NZ is $2,100 - it's cheaper to pre-check each tenant online at www.tinz.net.nz to avoid getting someone else's problem tenant

The reason this is the case, if indeed it is, is not because of bad tenants but because of bad landlords. I want you try bite your lip and think about this. These landlords are bad landlords because they do not understand their rights or how to use those rights properly through the system provided for them - the TT and the various enforcement options available to them. It is not unreasonable to draw the conclusion from this that the landlord in question also does not understand much about the workings of the RTA or about running a rental business is a effective and professional way. This would include one, correct tenant selection at the start, and two, wasting as little time as possible sorting out the mess when things go wrong. No landlord running his business correctly should ever be $2,000 out of pocket from one tenancy.

More to come later...

xris

[Melissa M]

I agree with xris. As a landlord you have a responsibility to yourself and your business to take all reasonable steps to ensure that you choose tenants that are going to be "good" tenants. We have 6 houses and have good tenants in every house. How do we get that? Firstly we have nice houses, we keep them in excellent condition and on the odd occassion when we have had to get new tenants (as most of ours tend to stay) we have had lots of choice as the houses are desirable to a large number of people. We also do reference checks (as I am an HR professional in another life I realise just how important these are), we take into account gut feel (as that is a factor) and also if there is any problems with coming up with deposits etc.

Secondly we are good landlords. We see it as a partnership being both parties and if we expect to get rent on time and the place to be looked after, then the tenant can expect that if anything is wrong then we will jump and get it fixed immediately. We also do the personalised Xmas gift and basically have a good relationship with them. We also set our clear expectations at the start and because we don't bull s**t and do as we say, we don't tend to have problems.

The one time we did have a problem (when an external party chose the tenant as a one off) then we followed our rights and got the required paperwork done immediately. I think that some landlords think property investment is an easy way to just make some money without doing the work or taking the time to understand the legal requirements and obligations and it is those people who all of a sudden check their bank account a month later and find out no rent has been paid and then get all affronted. Once the tenant is that far behind then it is harder for them to pay it back. It's about taking responsibility and recognising that this is business. I take as much care in choosing a tenant as I would in recruiting an employee. And then I treat them as I would an employee that I wanted to keep and not be arrogant enough to think that I'm doing them a favour by "allowing" them to live in one of my properties.

[xris]

Hello again mr tinz,

Before further pulling your company to pieces I thought I'd be helpful and more pleasant for a change.

Why not follow the hint given by carolina and create a database of 'bad' landlords. To be on this list the landlords need have nothing different done to them than the 'bad' tenants you list. This would go some way to redressing the balance and giving some sort of heightened credibility to your company. In addition it is of course nothing more than the fair thing to do.

I could give you details of a landlord I recently came across who would fit neatly into this database. She was clueless and she ended up putting an innocent person out on the street to satisfy her own lust for revenge.

Why not do it, it's only fair. Surely you can see that?

xris

[Glenn]

Good one TCINZ. That is a great service.
I have been supplying photos of debtors to the collection service of the courts for years now. From what they say I am the only one doing it.
Then recently I discovered the wombles where putting the photos on the file and not giving it to the ballif. Guess why. They did not have a colour copier and had to keep the original on the files.
So now I give them TWO copies of the mug shots.
I am surprised that the other branches of the courts have not figured out to ask for two copies. So yes keep them pictures coming.
I seem to be a source of photos for a few collection agencies also.
Surprise surprise. People who do not pay their rent do not pay lots of other debts like HP, doctors. and vets either.

Mr chase talked to the NZPIF conference a few years ago.
He mentioned having a miniture camera on the end of the clip board to catch the debtors as they opened the door.
Can you help me. I have been looking to buy one of those little fellows for ages but can not find one to buy.
Any ideas on a source please.


Sounds like a great idea putting the photos on the department of courts web site for bad tenants also. I would love to get my photo on it. Great advertising.

The Snapper

[muppet]

Hi Glenn

I see that you signed off as the snapper.

Have you tried feeding a snapper to your cat yet?

Regards

[Glenn]

Hi Glenn

I see that you signed off as the snapper.

Have you tried feeding a snapper to your cat yet?

Regards

Well actually my cat died last year.
Must have been suffering from too rich a diet.