Carports converted to garage and rumpus - cannot find consents

[larryl]

Hi all

I bought my first and current house back in 2006 and have just started thinking about doing some alterations. The house was built in 1975 and is in Whitby, Porirua.

I wanted to turn a downstairs rumpus room into a bedroom (which I thought would be easy enough as my Father In Law is a registered builder) but when I went to check the council records, I can't see any evidence of there being a permit for converting the 2 carports into a garage and a rumpus room. I'm now worried that I'll open up a can of worms if I ask the council any questions about it. Plus I don't really want to spend good money on making alterations, only to find that the council tells me it has to all come down.

I found on file at the council a permit for a wood burner fire from 1982 and that had a hand drawn floor plan of the house included. It showed a rumpus and single garage on the lower level and then showed the proposed changes for the fireplace (which incidentally was long gone by the time we bought.) I am wondering given that the council obviously sighted those plans and signed off on the fire, that it would indicate that they were aware of the rumpus and garage (it's not like you can miss them!)

My question is, is it possible the council has lost some records between 1975 - 1982? Incidentally, it does seem that there are a couple of other houses nearby which might have had similar alterations and I couldn't see permits for them either. Should I be concerned about not being able to find any permits for the change from two carports to a garage and rumpus? (Currently I am concerned of course as I don't know any better.) Given that it was pre 1991, will that make any difference?

What advice could anyone give me about how to move forward on this? Obviously when I come to sell it could be an issue for me (not that I am planning on selling yet.)

I'm just a bit reluctant to approach the council about it right now as I could open up a can of worms.

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers

Larry

[sidinz]

Every man and his dog carried out unpermitted alterations in those days. Thousands of houses like this all over NZ. Even council records pre-1991 are pretty sketchy even when the work was done officially.

Do a search on this site - there are dozens of threads about such things with some very knowledgeable, comprehensive answers.

[larryl]

Thanks Sidinz

Yes I did have a good read of threads in the forum prior to posting and you are correct, there are some great answers. The fact that there are no permits doesn't particularly bother me personally currently however I do wish to do more work on the downstairs and I'd rather not throw good money down a hole if I was to sell. So really I was wondering if anyone would recommend approaching the council to discuss the issue or just "plead ignorance" if I ever got questioned about it? What is the worst case scenario? Could the council still fine me if they wanted to? Or ask for the garage and downstairs room to be removed and put back as a carport?

Thanks

Larry

[John the builder]

They could fine you only because councils they can, they take the view that unauthorized work is contrary to s40 building act.

This section creates an offense for person carrying out work.

Strictly this offense stops when the work does but the council don't 'get this' and prefer to bully owners.

You would be brave to bring it to their attention.

rather get a safe and sanitary report done and if it is S and S then submit this.This creates the official approval that recognizes that unless dangerous or insanitary council have no power over your existing building. They accept them for pre-1991 work. ("actually they should have to accept them for all buildings all the time"). Be careful that planning is checked off or a retrospective Resource consent may be required?

There is no power to remove under the building act unless dangerous or insanitary and then they can only make not Dangerous and not Insanitary. Under RMA they can remove adverse effects so watch whether this applies but a carport should be ok as long as there is other car spaces on the property?

It then becomes existing work and you can then add or alter to that

[larryl]

Thanks John

I appreciate you taking the time to reply and appreciate your comments. I see you are a well respected name here and have I been reading many of your posts on similar topics recently.

I will look into getting the report done. Just need to research who is qualified to do it. If the S&S report was to fail for some reason, is the individual who performs it legally obliged to notify the council? Or do they just let me know and walk away? ;-)

Thanks again!

Larry

[Wayne]

Could the council still fine me if they wanted to? Or ask for the garage and downstairs room to be removed and put back as a carport?

Ask the council to prove that it wasn't consented given that it is shown on the plan for the fire.

[larryl]

Thanks Wayne... I appreciate your feedback. Yes - well I am also wondering if perhaps it isn't just a record-keeping issue and that indeed it may have been permitted. Given that it would have been a paper file in those days, it would be easy for documents to be misplaced and ultimately lost. Do you know if a LIM report would show more than would be available to me directly through the council intranet. I could only find a handful of documents there but wondered if a LIM might show more info?

Larry

[Don't believe the Hype]

$324+ GST and 10'days will answer this question... Anything else is just an opinion.

[John the builder]

LIM may tell you permits consent issued but a careful examination of the property file plans is needed to tell what was included and LIM doesn't do this. If there is doubt then it should be with the present building?

[John the builder]

Could the council still fine me if they wanted to? Or ask for the garage and downstairs room to be removed and put back as a carport?

yes because council impose their own interpretation of the law. Is this council action legal ? no but you need to defend your rights.

The offense is to person carrying out work under s40 and not for the presence of unauthorised works but council often confuse the two.

There is nothing in the Building act that gives them this power it simply remains unauthorised works unless the building is dangerous or insanitary and then they can only make it not dangerous which may not mean removal?

RMA is another consideration but only if a district plan rule is broken. e.g. only parking space removed and there is no room for another. The RMA can require removal of 'adverse effect'