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Median Sale Price: Is it showing the true picture or misleading???

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  • freedompath
    Freshie
    • Jun 2005
    • 25

    #1

    Median Sale Price: Is it showing the true picture or misleading???

    I heard on the radio that Real Estate Institute mentioned that the median sale price has not dropped, hence property prices also have not dropped despite the falling number of sales.

    In my humble opinion, I am not convinced. Does the unchanged (or even slightly higher) median price really indicate that price holds up well, even though we have seen a big price drop of the properties sold in our neighbourhood? Having studied a little bit of statistical analysis, I have had a closer look at the magic of “median price”, and would like to show how misleading it can be.

    In my example below, I have randomly chosen 21 numbers that could represent the asking prices and they are:

    10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200, 210

    Based on this, you should end up with a median price of 110.

    Then in my Scenario 1

    They are fewer buyers around and the sales volume drops by 30%. Six vendors out of the original 21 decide to withdraw their properties off the market. Let’s assume 20, 40, 60, 110, 120, 190 are taken off the market. I have presumed that the lower-end of properties are affected more because buyers in the low-price range are more likely to struggle in the current high inflationary environment.

    As a result, these are the remaining 15 properties’ asking prices.
    10, 30, 50, 70, 80, 90, 100, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 200, 210

    Vendors can’t sell, so they decide to drop the price by 10% across the board. The new asking prices of the remaining 15 properties are:

    9, 27, 45, 63, 72, 81, 90, 117, 126, 135, 144, 153, 162, 180, 189

    Now that the new median price is 117 after 10% price drop of ALL properties. Rember the original median price was only 110, and now after 10% drop in asking prices, the new median has risen to 117!

    In my Scenario 2:

    As the market worsens and sale volume drops by 40%, now 8 out of the original 21 vendors decide to withdraw their properties off the market. Let’s assume 10, 20, 60, 80, 90, 110, 130, 210 are taken off from the original market (not scenario 1).

    As a result, these are the remaining 13 properties.
    30, 40, 50, 70, 100, 120, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200

    Desperate times call for desperate measures, so the remaining vendors decide to drop their price by 20% across the board.

    The new asking prices of the remaining 13 properties are:
    24, 32, 40, 56, 80, 96, 112, 120, 128, 136, 144, 152, 160

    Now the new median price is 112 after 20% price drop of all remaining properties. Remember that the original median price was 110, and now after 20% drop in asking prices of all remaining properties, the new median RISES to 112!

    I have encountered many real estate agents who tell me that the median price, even though sales volume has dropped by 40%, holds well.

    I hope that you can see that even if price drops by 20%, the median price doesn’t necessarily reflect the market is holding up in price terms. In the above two scenarios, the median price even goes the opposite way.

    Here are my questions that I am interested in the PT forum thoughts:
    1. Does median price really show the true picture?
    2. If median price is unreliable, why do you consider that the Real Estate Institute likes to quote and use it to state that prices are not falling?
    3. Do you think that the Real Estate Institute should consider publishing “average sale price” in addition to their preferred median price?

    I look forward to reading your thoughts.
  • Green Fish
    Fanatical
    • Apr 2008
    • 2074

    #2
    Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics

    Great work.

    As turnover drops, the sample size gets less, and the statistics become far less reliable.

    The effect of using the median average, instead of the usual mean average, was, I thought, to reduce the impact of a sale of a very expensive property. But looking at your example, you can see that if there are several 'high end' sales at a time when there a very few sales, the median average is also going to get skewed.

    Another point is that although the REINZ say they use the median, many of their firms (notably, Barfoot & Thompson in Auckland) use the mean. So the agents are in the position of being able to have it both ways. (The problem is that neither way will save them.)
    Last edited by Green Fish; 14-06-2008, 03:35 PM.

    Comment

    • halfempty
      Addicted
      • May 2008
      • 603

      #3
      Which is why people ask for a valuation to be done on a property.

      So then the valuer looks over the comparable sales and picks out the "Freak" Sales or any sales that are dodgy or inside sales.

      Then the valuer takes out any sales that lead him to a value that is not within the parameters of what he's beeing asked (paid) to come back with.

      So we are back to not really having a clue again....

      Maybe we are just going to have to trust our gut instinct and local market knowledge?

      Comment

      • 67910241
        Fanatical
        • Jan 2008
        • 1077

        #4
        Yup

        Originally posted by Green Fish View Post
        Great work.

        As turnover drops, the sample size gets less, and the statistics become far less reliable.

        The effect of using the median average, instead of the usual mean average, was, I thought, to reduce the impact of a sale of a very expensive property. But looking at your example, you can see that if there are several 'high end' sales at a time when there a very few sales, the median average is also going to get skewed.
        The median reduces the impact of outliers, as GF has said before, which the mean value cannot do unless the "outliers" are manually identified and pre-filtered, which can be tricky and time-consuming. So it's less imperfect than the mean average, but can still be quite imperfect especially when the individual natural distributions are not well segmented but are left aggregated instead.
        Last edited by cube; 14-06-2008, 03:11 PM.

        Comment

        • whitt
          Fanatical
          • Jun 2005
          • 3922

          #5
          FreedomPath
          you have stumbled upon an area Trass dicusses often.
          check out his info on it at

          Comment

          • Green Fish
            Fanatical
            • Apr 2008
            • 2074

            #6
            But "Suburb Watch" is even more flawed, given the huge reduction in the size of the sample.

            I don't think that anyone can seriously argue that certain suburbs are increasing in value, whilst others are going down.

            Comment

            • whitt
              Fanatical
              • Jun 2005
              • 3922

              #7
              Originally posted by Green Fish View Post
              But "Suburb Watch" is even more flawed, given the huge reduction in the size of the sample.
              Unsure what you mean here? Are you saying suburbwatch suburb sizes?


              Originally posted by Green Fish View Post
              I don't think that anyone can seriously argue that certain suburbs are increasing in value, whilst others are going down.
              Maybe I missed it. Did somebody mention prices are going up in some areas?

              Comment

              • Green Fish
                Fanatical
                • Apr 2008
                • 2074

                #8
                Wasn't the whole point of "Suburb Watch" to identify "hot" suburbs? (I accept that they're all freezing now.)

                Comment

                • Steve Netwriter
                  Fanatical
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 1114

                  #9
                  Originally posted by freedompath View Post

                  Here are my questions that I am interested in the PT forum thoughts:
                  1. Does median price really show the true picture?
                  2. If median price is unreliable, why do you consider that the Real Estate Institute likes to quote and use it to state that prices are not falling?
                  3. Do you think that the Real Estate Institute should consider publishing “average sale price” in addition to their preferred median price?

                  I look forward to reading your thoughts.

                  1. No, of course not.

                  2. The Real Estate Institute is not a consumer organisation. They are there for the real estate industry. They make money by selling houses, so of course they want people to buy and sell, and in the greatest numbers possible.
                  You can't really blame them for having a bias. So would anyone with a vested interest.
                  But, it means you should ignore their reporting
                  It makes for fun reading.....and nothing more.

                  3. Having read discussions on the reporting of housing markets, I think it's actually quite difficult to provide a really good picture in all market conditions. But they could a be a LOT better than we get force fed.


                  It is fun picking out all the contradictory statements in reports/articles though.
                  Things like "prices are not falling and are stable" followed by "sellers must price to meet the market if they wish to sell".
                  You gotta laugh

                  Would you like some real hard facts ?
                  Yes. OK then here you go
                  Sorry, it's quite long now!


                  Advertisement Numbers

                  3rd Sep 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 56082 listings.
                  Motivated = 830 listings. 1.48%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 29210 listings.
                  Motivated = 471 listings. 1.6%


                  21st Sep 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 58652 listings.
                  Motivated = 897 on 45 pages. 1.53%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 30790 listings.
                  Motivated = 516 on 26 pages. 1.68%


                  6th Oct 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 60533 listings.
                  Motivated = 971 listings. 1.6%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 31975 listings.
                  Motivated = 578 listings. 1.8%


                  17th Oct 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 62112 listings.
                  Motivated = 949 listings. 1.53%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 33057 listings.
                  Motivated = 574 listings. 1.74%

                  A change to the website occurred here which caused a step in the numbers.

                  1st Nov 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 43,980 listings.
                  Motivated = 755 listings. 1.72%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 33,772 listings.
                  Motivated = 616 listings. 1.82%


                  12th Nov 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 46,046 listings.
                  Motivated = 796 listings. 1.73%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 35,355 listings.
                  Motivated = 637 listings. 1.80%


                  23rd Nov 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 47,393 listings.
                  Motivated = 873 listings. 1.84%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 36,412 listings.
                  Motivated = 690 listings. 1.89%


                  8th Dec 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 47,851 listings.
                  Motivated = 860 listings. 1.80%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 36,934 listings.
                  Motivated = 692 listings. 1.87%


                  22nd Dec 2007:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 48,035 listings.
                  Motivated = 872 listings. 1.82%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 37,069 listings.
                  Motivated = 701 listings. 1.89%


                  9th Jan 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 47,422 listings.
                  Motivated = 847 listings. 1.79%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 36,612 listings.
                  Motivated = 680 listings. 1.86%


                  25th Jan 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 49,926 listings.
                  Motivated = 933 listings. 1.87%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 38,721 listings.
                  Motivated = 754 listings. 1.95%


                  22nd Feb 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 53,880 listings.
                  Motivated = 1,064 listings. 1.97%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 41,946 listings.
                  Motivated = 861 listings. 2.05%


                  12th Mar 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 55,251 listings.
                  Motivated = 1,161 listings. 2.1%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 43,120 listings.
                  Motivated = 930 listings. 2.16%


                  28th Apr 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 57,536 listings.
                  Motivated = 1,390 listings. 2.42%

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 45,185 listings.
                  Motivated = 1,127 listings. 2.49%


                  14th May 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 55,741 listings. <- A fall in numbers
                  Motivated = 1,397 listings. 2.51% <- But a continued rise in the % of motivated

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 44,170 listings.
                  Motivated = 1,143 listings. 2.59%


                  14th June 2008:

                  All properties:
                  Currently 54,164 listings. <- A fall in numbers
                  Motivated = 1,382 listings. 2.55% <- But a continued rise in the % of motivated

                  Just houses:
                  Currently 43,090 listings. <- A fall in numbers
                  Motivated = 1,134 listings. 2.63% <- But a continued rise in the % of motivated

                  From http://www.realestate.co.nz/


                  Sales Numbers for 2006

                  Jan 6,360
                  Feb 7,930
                  Mar 10,039
                  Apr 7,576
                  May 9,642
                  Jun 8,428
                  Jul 7,761
                  Aug 8,556
                  Sep 8,658
                  Oct 8,857
                  Nov 9,990
                  Dec 8,245

                  Sales Numbers for 2007

                  Jan 7,566
                  Feb 9,357
                  Mar 10,000
                  Apr 8,194
                  May 9,285
                  Jun 7,474 <--- Drop in numbers starts here compared with 2006.
                  Jul 6,660
                  Aug 6,394
                  Sep 5,894
                  Oct 6,854
                  Nov 7,837
                  Dec 5,597

                  Sales Numbers for 2008
                  Jan 5,186
                  Feb 6,356
                  Mar 5,129
                  Apr 4,464
                  May 4,372

                  From: http://www.reinz.co.nz/reportingapp/...rt&RFCODE=R100

                  The Rental Market

                  21 Mar 2008
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 4078 NZ
                  http://www.trademe.co.nz Rentals Canterbury = 879

                  29 Mar 2008
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 3,939 NZ (down 3%)
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 454 Canterbury
                  http://www.trademe.co.nz Rentals Canterbury = 923 (up 5%)

                  18 Apr 2008
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 4,744 NZ (up 20%)
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 508 Canterbury (up 12%)
                  http://www.trademe.co.nz Rentals Canterbury = 1079 (up 17%)

                  14 May 2008
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 5,181 NZ (up 9.2%)
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 616 Canterbury (up 21%)
                  http://www.trademe.co.nz Rentals Canterbury = 1103 (up 2.2%)

                  25 May 2008
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 5,388 NZ (up 4%)
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 634 Canterbury (up 2.9%)
                  http://www.trademe.co.nz Rentals Canterbury = 1187 (up 7.6%)

                  14 June 2008
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 5,821 NZ (up 8%)
                  http://www.realestate.co.nz/rental = 632 Canterbury (0%)
                  http://www.trademe.co.nz Rentals Canterbury = 1369 (up 15%)
                  Last edited by Steve Netwriter; 14-06-2008, 04:58 PM.

                  Comment

                  • whitt
                    Fanatical
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 3922

                    #10
                    Nice stats Steve

                    Comment

                    • whitt
                      Fanatical
                      • Jun 2005
                      • 3922

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Green Fish View Post
                      Wasn't the whole point of "Suburb Watch" to identify "hot" suburbs? (I accept that they're all freezing now.)
                      Suburbwatch ( Aka Hybrid Property price index/ hotspot reports) can display a fairly accurate display of of both Hot and Cold suburbs. I guess it is the long term trend analysis behind the scenes which really matters. And Suburbwatch does not paint a pretty picture for many areas.

                      The trick is trying to work out where the values in these areas may fall to. That way you could potentially keep investing right now. There is no point buying at 10% below if an area will end up 20% below.

                      Comment

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