Is this fair? Building company to pay 200K for broken footpath resulting in death!

[GLin]

Councils would be in direct line of fire, if they fail to maintain their assets, and cause death in public.

Same will apply to private properties, if your mail parcel delivery guy comes onto your driveway, tripped, and died, private owners will fork out too.

Now everyone will need to take out insurance against this risk.

Oh wait, this is already been happening in America for decades!

[mrsaneperson]

Hey as a contractor we have to ensure we meet the H & S requirements on all our jobs so why should this company not have to?? Always included in the cost of doing the job.

Last night i went om my usual walk around the block , encountering literally hundreds of pavement faults along the way. Uplifted slabs, cracks in pavement ,uneven surfaces [like the one in the incident refereed to] So these are sitting lawsuits for every wannabe Tom, Dick & HARRY to launch against the Council. You and I will be paying dearly for the in increased rate hikes from litigation's amassed. .So are you telling me that a building project that is unfinished as yet is supposedly requiring a perfectly laid footpath for pedestrian usage while construction work is going on?

Real perspective is not about creating an imaginary absolutely perfect world.

[Meehole]

Last night i went om my usual walk around the block , encountering literally hundreds of pavement faults along the way. Uplifted slabs, cracks in pavement ,uneven surfaces [like the one in the incident refereed to] So these are sitting lawsuits for every wannabe Tom, Dick & HARRY to launch against the Council. You and I will be paying dearly for the in increased rate hikes from litigation's amassed. .So are you telling me that a building project that is unfinished as yet is supposedly requiring a perfectly laid footpath for pedestrian usage while construction work is going on?

Real perspective is not about creating an imaginary absolutely perfect world.

That is unrealistic what you are talking about. I am referring to building sites that have fencing up, cones and barriers in place, signs warning of hazards. If these are all in place and H & S is covered off then responsibility lies with the person that took the risk to go on to this part of the property, road, site, whatever the case may be.
And yes every Tom, Dick and Harry can file a lawsuit these days in the High Court and try and sue you, that is fact of life.
Did you come home and report the uplifted slabs to the Council? H & S is a huge cost to a business these days, these guys obviously didn't abide by the rules and must pay as would we if we were to blame.

[Rosco]

Last night i went om my usual walk around the block , encountering literally hundreds of pavement faults along the way. Uplifted slabs, cracks in pavement ,uneven surfaces [like the one in the incident refereed to] So these are sitting lawsuits for every wannabe Tom, Dick & HARRY to launch against the Council. You and I will be paying dearly for the in increased rate hikes from litigation's amassed. .So are you telling me that a building project that is unfinished as yet is supposedly requiring a perfectly laid footpath for pedestrian usage while construction work is going on?

Real perspective is not about creating an imaginary absolutely perfect world.

So if a developer had dug a big hole in the footpath, you would just be happy for it to be fixed later?

You wouldn't expect the hole to be roped off, so that no one could fall in it?


NO developer or builder or council or road worker, should leave a footpath or road in an unsafe manner. At the very least you would expect the area to be roped off, or the potential haszard carefully marked.


The investigation determined that the developer hadn't taken reasonable steps, and by not taking reasonable steps they had contributed towards the death of a person. Surely they should then be fined something at a minimal, as they contributed towards a death. That is very serious surely!


Ross

[mrsaneperson]

We're not talking big holes Ross we're talking about some slight deviance in a footpath that was leading into a building site whereby a frail man in a mobility scooter somehow fell off and may have contributed in some way to his own demise.
How unsafe was the footpath deemed? You're missing perspective. Nothing is 100% safe .

Did you travel on the road today , were there any slight deviance's in the tar seal , the steps entering your building have they been checked and warranted, what about that pie you ate, are you sure you read the use-by date correctly. Maybe the printing on it was too small, so you didn't read it right ?

What about those numbers you crunched today ?Did someone re-check them? And then maybe did someone else recheck the recheck? Somehow maybe you made a mistake and it cost someone dearly and heavily ,how much do you think you should pay for causing so much stress,that as a result your client died of a heart attack ?
200K sound about right?

[Rosco]

We're not talking big holes Ross we're talking about some slight deviance in a footpath that was leading into a building site whereby a frail man in a mobility scooter somehow fell off and may have contributed in some way to his own demise.
How unsafe was the footpath deemed? You're missing perspective. Nothing is 100% safe .

Did you travel on the road today , were there any slight deviance's in the tar seal , the steps entering your building have they been checked and warranted, what about that pie you ate, are you sure you read the use-by date correctly. Maybe the printing on it was too small, so you didn't read it right ?

What about those numbers you crunched today ?Did someone re-check them? And then maybe did someone else recheck the recheck? Somehow maybe you made a mistake and it cost someone dearly and heavily ,how much do you think you should pay for causing so much stress,that as a result your client died of a heart attack ?
200K sound about right?

Yes - Our financial statements and tax returns have a double review process! Also numbers part isn't health and safety! Yes if the steps entering our building were unsafe, and someone died I would probably personally be liable under health and safety. It is my job ultimately to ensure my staff, clients and visitors are safe. If someone died as a result of our office being unsafe, I think a $200k fine is probably on the low side. How much is a human life worth? Getting back on topic;

You obviously inspected this site yourself at the time of the accident?

So you know for a fact it was only a slight deviance?

The qualified experts who under took the investigation and had full access to the site and all information, must know less than you?


Overall I'm kind of appalled this conversation is even coming up, and that $200k fine is being thought too much for someone's life!

Ross

[Meehole]

mrsaneperson is it obvious to me that you do not work in the construction sector. As one that does and spends alot of time and money ensuring our workers and business complies with the law, the building company got a fine that was fair and just under the circumstances.
There are many building firms and builders that cut corners in order to save a dollar and increase their profit margins. God forbid that it should be a family member of yours that suffers the same fate down the track. It is a possibility, never say never.
You haven't answered my question about whether you notified the relevant TA about the concrete slab footpath that needs jacking.

[Davo36]

Safety safety safety.

It'll be the ruin of us.




We used to get sh*t done in this country without excessive hand ringing about every little thing.

[Viking]

3 wheel scooter no doubt. should be banned. Unstable.

[elguapo]

How safe is safe?
You cannot just make a call that everything in this world has to be 100% safe ,its unrealistic and the time,energy and cost factor involved in doing so creates far more deaths in the process as costs and stress levels rise exponentially . Everything has perspective.

There is no such thing as safe. There are only varying degrees of risk. The company was fined, primarily, for failing to identify and manage the risk.

[mrsaneperson]

Keep safety matters in perspective and context is what is required . Slight surface deviation in the temporary concrete footpath were not the only contributing factors in this case.

The instability of the 3 wheel scooter combined with the failing physical health of the deceased were major contributing factors. This appears to have been very much overlooked.

Experts in every field can get it wrong sometimes.

[Meehole]

As elguapo rightly said 'the company was fined, primarily, for failing to identify and manage risk'. You cannot argue against that. Whether the deceased 'supposedly' had failing physical health or not is irrelevant. Perhaps if he had been 50 years younger he may have had the reflexes to minimise his fall and be able to get up and dust himself off, will never know. But the point is that a failure to manage risk to the public was negligence created by the company.

[mrsaneperson]

Context is everything. Accountability and context always go together. "Risk to the public" should always be with respect to context otherwise we are held ransom to the smallest fallibility.

[Meehole]

Context is everything. Accountability and context always go together. "Risk to the public" should always be with respect to context otherwise we are held ransom to the smallest fallibility.

Do you know the company directors as it sounds to me as if there is a personal involvement. I find your views very skewed towards blaming the deceased victim.

[mrsaneperson]

I have no personal connection at all. I'm just going on my observations and thoughts regarding circumstances in what will be thousands of situations like this across NZ right now.

Personal responsibility exists to some degree to the victim, yes he made a wrong judgment and because of his failing health the consequences of that judgment played a large part in his death.