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  • muppet
    Banned
    • Sep 2003
    • 10593

    #1

    IRD tells real estate agents to open books

    IRD tells real estate agents to open books
    By SEAN SCANLON - Sunday Star Times | Sunday, 09 December 2007


    The country's top 1000 property speculators are being targeted in an Inland Revenue crackdown on unpaid taxes.

    As part of the campaign, IRD staff are visiting real estate agents with warnings that sales and purchase information would have to be disclosed if requested.

    In this year's budget, the IRD got an extra $14.6 million to target tax evasion in the property market.

    A Wellington real estate firm, which declined to be named, said it was dismayed that a recent IRD visit warned of possible sales and purchase auditing.

    "At the end of the day it shows they can come in here and do anything," an agent said.

    IRD assurance group manager Martin Scott said its visits to real estate offices included a presentation on the obligations involved in property transactions.

    The 1000 people identified with extremely high numbers of property transactions would be contacted to see if they would make "voluntary disclosures" about their tax returns.

    "Some people have a belief you don't have to pay taxes on housing profits but depending on the purchaser's intent it could be taxable."

    He declined to say how IRD identified property profiteers but said it used audit powers that required "third parties" such as real estate agents to disclose information about their clients.

    "Yes, we do have powers to request information but at this stage these visits [to agents] are more about where we are going and what to expect from us. We would give them [agents] scenarios on what we would consider taxable and what we wouldn't."

    By making voluntary disclosures people could limit or avoid penalties, Scott said.

    "We are not trying to trap people. We are working to ensure that people have the information they need to do the right thing."

    New Zealand Property Investors' Federation Otago president Cliff Seque said the IRD had more powers than the police to search for information.

    "It is very easy to track people down and find that they are trading in property, developing and pocketing the profits. If you are trading and living off the profits of buying and selling property you have to pay tax like everybody else has to."

    Seque said the IRD had to prove a property buyer's intent.

    "I know there were cases in Wanaka where they were buying and selling sections even before the titles were issued. So it's very hard to prove the intent was to keep it and build on it."

    Real Estate Institute president Murray Cleland said the IRD's tactics were encroaching on clients' privacy.

    Act leader Rodney Hide said he had had "considerable experience" with property investors who have unwittingly got themselves in trouble with the IRD.

    "It can be really tough applying the tax laws to property development.

    "The IRD has come up with new and novel ideas that have just tipped people over.

    "It would be very helpful if parliament would provide clearer rules so that people knew where they stood. No one wants to defend tax evasion but there are real difficulties for investors especially mum and dad investors."

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaystartim...7361a6005.html
  • xris
    Fanatical
    • Nov 2005
    • 3283

    #2
    Well, it was inevitable really.

    Who is shaking in their boots right now?

    If you are, will you have a claim against those seminar people who told you it was alright to act in that dangerous manner?

    xris

    Comment

    • Ivanhoe
      Fanatical
      • Jul 2005
      • 1156

      #3
      xris, you post is unfair and unreasonable.

      I attended quite a few and every presenter was VERY clear about what transactions may or what may not be taxed. Usually they included at least an hour-long presentation from accountant/taxation experts. And attendees were encouraged to seek professional advice too.
      Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

      Comment

      • JohnL
        Addicted
        • Feb 2004
        • 651

        #4
        I agree with Ivan. Its not the people who attend the courses that are the problem. Its the mum & dad investors who have dabbled in limited trading over the last few years of the boom and sometimes some very active traders who have never attended a course and don't come onto PropertyTalk. I meet one the other day who has already paid the IRD over a $1m and still owes them another million or so and all the trading was in their own name.

        John

        Comment

        • cat
          Forum Junkie
          • Oct 2003
          • 318

          #5
          Originally posted by xris View Post
          Well, it was inevitable really.

          Who is shaking in their boots right now?
          The only ones who will be shaking will be the seminar presenters left OFF the list. Sheesh, the top 1000! That's a pretty wide net. If you don't get caught in it then you just aren't trading enough.

          Dean Letfus has said, if you're not earning $500k in a year, you're not doing it right. Just how many people are operating at that level though? Surely not thousands!
          Wealth vs Health - why have both when you can gorge on one?

          Comment

          • JohnL
            Addicted
            • Feb 2004
            • 651

            #6
            Most active traders have their structures right and are paying their taxes. The IRD already know about their transactions every GST period. It would be interesting to see how low a level the top 1000 non diclosed traders/speculators list gets to. Will it pick up the people who have bought and sold three houses over the last four years?

            John

            Comment

            • Davo36
              Fanatical
              • Sep 2007
              • 8450

              #7
              How do they decide who the top 100 are? If they're not declaring the gains as taxable the IRD would have to go through balance sheets or something?

              Do the IRD have access to buy and sell figures? And with names attached to them? Or are they just scaremongering?

              David
              Squadly dinky do!

              Comment

              • Julian
                Fanatical
                • Jan 2005
                • 1524

                #8
                Quite frankly I would be surprised if too many of the big traders aren't paying their tax - they would have too much to lose if caught.
                Julian
                Gimme $20k. You will receive some well packaged generic advice that will put you on the road to riches beyond your wildest dreams ...yeah right!

                Comment

                • SuperDad
                  Hamilton Event Organiser
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 4015

                  #9
                  I would think that most here would welcome the targetting of non-compliant traders.

                  They are the competition, who are gaining an unfair advantage by not paying their dues.

                  Paul.

                  Comment

                  • whitt
                    Fanatical
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 3922

                    #10
                    Possibly it is the smaller traders.

                    For example the builders who build , move in, sell off after a small timeframe and repeat process.

                    Comment

                    • Monid
                      Philophaster
                      • Feb 2004
                      • 3062

                      #11
                      I agree Julian, but I won't be surprised if some are found to have some very edgy accounting...

                      David
                      New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

                      Comment

                      • Monid
                        Philophaster
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 3062

                        #12
                        Oh and yes Superdad I definitely do

                        Cheers
                        David
                        New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

                        Comment

                        • xris
                          Fanatical
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 3283

                          #13
                          I would agree that most of the top traders are structured correctly, so Ivan, hold on to your chair and be prepared for a shock...

                          I agree with Ivan that my original post may have been unfairly overstated.

                          But, a couple of points spring to mind. (or rather three)

                          If IRD is going on a witch hunt then the top traders are likely to have their trades scrutinised to the n'th degree. One slight hiccough and they are dead meat.

                          Second, no matter what the seminars say, there will be many people who take short cuts and don't do things properly. These amateur traders are likely to be in for a hiding if audited.

                          Third, the mums and dads. These are probably the most blatantly obvious offenders but also the ones that I believe IRD will pass by because they are small fry.

                          My gut feeling is that it will be the middle rank traders who will be targeted as easy pickings. They have a trust or two set up and run by themselves or a poor quality lawyer or accountant and they also have an LAQC and think that is all that is needed.

                          xris
                          Last edited by xris; 09-12-2007, 08:04 PM. Reason: realised a couple means two

                          Comment

                          • JohnL
                            Addicted
                            • Feb 2004
                            • 651

                            #14
                            Sounds much easier to get money out of people who haven't paid any tax on the 'trades' profit. Not sure why they would go to real estate agents unless its for followup or just an article to rattle people and get some voluntary disclosure.

                            Surely they review the land transactions via data base searchs and then exclude those being done by know traders (which they know from their own databases). A relatively trivial bit of database programming if they have the data in the right format. I had assumed that is how they have been auditing over the last year or two when they targeted areas like Queenstown!!

                            John

                            Comment

                            • xris
                              Fanatical
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 3283

                              #15
                              I assume the following may also be an approach taken by IRD.

                              "Hello Mr REA. Who is buying and selling regularly through your company using one of your RE salespersons as the prefered contact"

                              Mr REA (ie the licencee) now having quickly changed his pants at the sight of IRD inspectors at his reception desk, quickly thinks of Mark, his number one man, and meekly says: "Mark sells a lot to and for developers and investors, perhaps you should talk to him. I'll get our office girl to dig up all the sales records that have gone through Mark over the last six months for you." "Make that six years please Mr Licencee" say the inspectors. If you'd like we could find out that information, and anything else of interest to us, by using our own methods." Having changed his pants again and thinking of Mark who he knows is round at the printers organising another back of the bus picture ad, the licencee summons over his reception girl and office manager and tells them to get down to it pronto. "Would tomorrow at 5.00pm be quick enough for you?" he says. "You have three hours only" say the black suited inspectors. Off to the toilet goes the licencee again.

                              A lot easier than trawling through databases I would think.

                              xris
                              Last edited by xris; 11-12-2007, 06:40 AM. Reason: spelling

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