Warrant of Fitness for rentals (including details)

[Wayne]

I know my thinking seems a bit extreme but a tenant is a client when repairs deem the property a work place.
Quote - In a construction context, a PCBU (Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking) is any company, sole trader or self employed person involved in a construction project and includes: Client, Main Contractor, Consultant, Designers, Subcontractors, Suppliers. Unquote
How many landlords manage repairs themselves? How many landlords have a PM manage their repairs? How many H & S documents between the parties are signed to protect themselves and their businesses?
I don't agree with the changes, its a step too far and probably written by pen pushers employed in a Govt job since they left school and no concept of the real world.
No doubt the TV item was a set up and staged to try and advance the case of bad landlords, but it gets you thinking about your responsibilities as a landlord (and a PCBU) when you engage someone to fix a problem with your property.

In a repair context what you say may have some bearing but your reply was in relation to an article about renting.

Have any landlords considered the new Health & Safety legislation and their liability if the tenant fell through a hole (rotten or otherwise) in the floor.
Or their liability if it was deemed the mould on the ceilings and curtains caused the tenant to get sick?

I don't think it applies at all to people falling throught the floor or getting sick from mould.
Maybe other leglislation does but nothing to do with the H&S act.
Pen pushers may have created the leglislation but other people seem to be taking it to far in their interpretation!

[Meehole]

Pen pushers may have created the legislation but other people seem to be taking it too far in their interpretation!

Yes like the insurers of the contractors for example??
I can tell you categorically Wayne that a tenant being a hazard on a jobsite (rental property) is a fact! The lines are not just blurred they have been crossed.

[Wayne]

Pen pushers may have created the legislation but other people seem to be taking it to far in their interpretation!
Yes like the insurers of the contractors for example??
I can tell you categorically Wayne that a tenant being a hazard on a jobsite (rental property) is a fact! The lines are not just blurred they have been crossed.

We are now talking cross purposes.
I wouldn't disagree that a tenant (or anyone else) on a jobsite is a hazard.
But that doesn't mean that you are bound by the new rules for a residential tenancy which you have suggested.
Unless the hole in the floor or the mould are a result of 'work' then the new H&S doesn't cover it!

[Meehole]

We are now talking cross purposes.
I wouldn't disagree that a tenant (or anyone else) on a jobsite is a hazard.
But that doesn't mean that you are bound by the new rules for a residential tenancy which you have suggested.
Unless the hole in the floor or the mould are a result of 'work' then the new H&S doesn't cover it!

If you read what I wrote, when a contractor comes to repair the hole in the floor or clean/paint over the mould then think about who is responsible for the Health & Safety at the property.
No longer is it just the sole trader that comes in to do the job for you or your PM. It is you as the landlord and your PM as your agent, or maybe your PM and you with contractor and sub contractor agreements between you?
I know its stretching it and the job of an insurance consultant, like a lawyer is to point out the traps and pitfalls, all I am suggesting is that in light of these changes and what I have been told is that any major repairs are best undertaken between tenancies and as a Duty Holder under the Act you be aware of your role in the scheme of things.
Its like the use of a 3 step ladder, some companies have banned them but under the HSE Act they are not banned as long as they are used as they were intended which is the 2 steps and not standing on top 3rd step.
It does seem that to get around that some contractors have now purchased 4 step ladders, (as only 3 step is highlighted) so they can now use 3rd and 4th step on their 4 step ladder to get around the rules.

[Wayne]

If you read what I wrote, when a contractor comes to repair the hole in the floor or clean/paint over the mould then think about who is responsible for the Health & Safety at the property.
No longer is it just the sole trader that comes in to do the job for you or your PM. It is you as the landlord and your PM as your agent, or maybe your PM and you with contractor and sub contractor agreements between you?
I know its stretching it and the job of an insurance consultant, like a lawyer is to point out the traps and pitfalls, all I am suggesting is that in light of these changes and what I have been told is that any major repairs are best undertaken between tenancies and as a Duty Holder under the Act you be aware of your role in the scheme of things.
Its like the use of a 3 step ladder, some companies have banned them but under the HSE Act they are not banned as long as they are used as they were intended which is the 2 steps and not standing on top 3rd step.
It does seem that to get around that some contractors have now purchased 4 step ladders, (as only 3 step is highlighted) so they can now use 3rd and 4th step on their 4 step ladder to get around the rules.

Agreed.
But most of my comments are in relation to your comment

Have any landlords considered the new Health & Safety legislation and their liability if the tenant fell through a hole (rotten or otherwise) in the floor.
Or their liability if it was deemed the mould on the ceilings and curtains caused the tenant to get sick?

On ladders - some companies (and me) have short step ladders that have a 'handle' at the top. You can stand on the top step but still have support via the handle - a step stool basically.

I also find it interesting that you say

but other people seem to be taking it to far in their interpretation!

and seem to do the same yourself?

[Meehole]

Well Wayne its a funny old world and you never know when something that seems insignificant now turns around and hits you from behind later on.
Some people are reactive, personally I am proactive and I will do everything I can to eliminate risk to me, my family and my business.
Nothing may ever transpire whereby this type of situation crops up but it might, but if you and other landlords are made aware that it might then what is the harm in that?

[Wayne]

Meehole - I wouldn't accept one of my properties having a hole in the floor or mould (especially to the extent in the article.
But what type of situation are you talking about?

Nothing may ever transpire whereby this type of situation crops up but it might, but if you and other landlords are made aware that it might then what is the harm in that?

[Eugene]

Meehole, that TV item was not even handed. Certainly it showed some property issues, but they may have been cherry picked to fit the narrative. Who knows? But it is what the telly does. The Vic Uni Students Association always talks in their media releases about places being cold and mouldy. Both of which are largely tenant responsibility. Not the landlord's responsibility if tenants can't afford to run a heater, clean off mould or ventilate properly. Or be accepted as tenants in better properties.

Plenty of good rentals available in Wellington for good tenants. (I rest my case!)

Those students - and others the SA considers live in unsatisfactory accommodation - could issue 14 day notices to the landlords. If the TT (or council) determines not habitable tenants will be out tout suite.

At an information evening last month run by Vic Uni for Kelburn residents, the head of the students' association had no idea that drying washing inside causes dampness.
Yet there is now a TV ad about this, info on the EECA site etc.
I patiently explain the year 11 school science behind keeping the house dry and easy to heat every time I see the washing hanging inside but tenants just don't get it.
Hey it is CHEAPER to run the dryer than to have the heater EVAPORATE ALL THE MOISTURE before the house can even begin to start warming up.
I spend a right fortune on insulation, vapour barriers, heat pumps, even heat pump driers too.
And we keep seeing this health science research wheeled out.
At least start educating the tenants.

[Perry]

At least start educating the tenants.

No chance. The Ministry of Bungling & Inappropriate Expenditure has said that it has no interest in trying to inform tenants of their obligations and responsibilities. Only LLs get that guilt laid on treatment.

Biased? Us? What can you be meaning?

Yeah, right.

The reality is that tenants wont attend any such seminars, of course.

[flyernzl]

Did you know that some builders when renovating now are asking their clients to stay away from the house while they undertake internal repairs?

Best practice for quite a few years is that no-one who is not actually working on the site should be permitted to be there while the work is being carried out.
This includes the owners and (of course) tenants.

Nothing new about it.

[Meehole]

Best practice for quite a few years is that no-one who is not actually working on the site should be permitted to be there while the work is being carried out.
This includes the owners and (of course) tenants.

Nothing new about it.

Nothing new except that in many cases the owners still remain in the house (and of course tenants). I could rattle off hundreds of jobs whereby this was the case, unless its a major involving ripping out all the walls, rewiring and replumbing. Difference is that under the new H & S you DONT want them there. Cost to tenant and owner to relocate while refurb works going on? $$???

[Keys]

I thought that the new H&S was about 'work places' - a rental isn't a work place for the tenant.

A rental is a work place for the propety manager or landlord.

[Wayne]

A rental is a work place for the propety manager or landlord.

Out of context!
Still isn't a 'work place' for the tenant.

[Keys]

As an employer, I send my employees into areas where they need to work. Ergo, the rental is a work place for my employees.

[Meehole]

Example of a job we are about to do. We are about to fix a portion of a concrete ring foundation using a specialised product that has been entered onto the Task Analysis/Hazard Register. The product if it comes in contact with the skin can cause burning so is only used by skilled operators. The subfloor can be accessed by the tenant and her small children as the property has internal piles and is just over a metre off the ground.
If one of the children gains access to the subfloor and decides to poke the resin with a stick before it has set and play with it after we have left the property secured, then Health & Safety will still come down on us like a ton of bricks.
Yes we will do all we can to make sure the area where we are working is secure but we cannot control the tenants. The rental is a work place and if the tenant remains living there they can become a hazard.