Personality

[SimpleSimon]

I have been reading through a number of threads in these forums and have noted the question of the importance of personality on investment success being debated in a number of places. There are those who claim that personality is almost irrelevant and that all you need is the right "strategy" and there are those who might say that the best of strategies is useless unless you have the the right personality.

Thoughts?

[Josko]

Personally I believe with the right strategy applied mechanically anyone can succeed (defining success as having attained wealth that allows for a continuous luxurious lifestyle - if you so choose). Will the person be complete or enjoy that success is reliant on their personality.

In addition remember…

Never forget to dust yourself of and persevere, never, never surrender, and don’t forget to evaluate the lesson learnt from being down there in the first place.

Some believe you are born with who you are; I believe life teaches you what you want out of life. So if you want in life is to be the best you can, open you mind, your heart and your soul and life will deliver all that you want to be.

[SimpleSimon]

Personally I believe with the right strategy applied mechanically anyone can succeed (

Would you also agree that some people are intrinsically more able than others to apply a certain strategy in a focussed, consistant and mechanical manner?

So if you want in life is to be the best you can, open you mind, your heart and your soul and life will deliver all that you want to be.

I agree. So what if the "best we can be" in life is something other than financially wealthy? What if the best we can be (in terms of our intrinsic makeup) is simply a loving parent, or a great jazz pianist, or the best damn supermarket trolley collector around?

I dunno. I just read some of the posts of the likes of Ron around here and, while I have total respect for their skills and dedication, I just can't see how I could possibly emulate their styles and strategies.

Take negotiation for example. There has been a lot of talk on negotiation "strategies" and it seems to me that a lot of these rely on an ability to keep a "poker face" - to lie about, or at least disguise, one's true intentions, feelings etc. I find that kind of thing really hard to do. I feel that if I'm not being true to others then I'm not being true to myself. I don't play my cards close to my chest - I lay them out on the table. I know I'm naive in this sense but that's the kind of person I feel most comfortable with being.

So how do I reconcile this with a desire to be moderately successful (as in insuring the future security of my family - I have no desire for more material wealth than I already have) in property investment? How can I get the good deals and negotiate good prices without having to be a little cagey and inscrutable?

And that's kinda what I was meaning about the personality question. Some of us are simply intrinsically better at certain things than others. Some are great with details. Some are better at more broad-brush scenarios. Still others seem to manage to deal well with both.

Personally I struggle with details. Record-keeping, filing, logs, etc.. they're all just a nuisance to me. I mean, I KNOW they're important but my talents lend themselves to such things about as well as Dubya's talents lend themselves towards a career in diplomacy or rocket science.

I found myself feeling really interested in the idea of buying a certain DVD collection of PI information today. I'm sure it's a wealth of valuable material and constructive advice that many people could potentially benefit greatly from. But then I reflected on my personal ability to focus on and retain information given to me in that kind of format. Sorry, I mean "inability". What might work for some won't necessarily work for others.

Perhaps "personality" was not quite the right word to have used in my original post. Perhaps the question is more about inherent personal attributes and their implications in terms of property investment?

Thoughts?

Simon



[/i][/quote]

[Josko]

Would you also agree that some people are intrinsically more able than others to apply a certain strategy in a focussed, consistent and mechanical manner?

No, I am of the opinion that you need the knowledge to participate in investing, knowledge is learnt, in that learning process your intrinsic nature, such as desire to succeed may drive you, however enthusiasm will only get you so far before you realise you are missing something practical, something that needs to be learnt before you can continue. For example you maybe in that position now.

So if you want in life is to be the best you can, open you mind, your heart and your soul and life will deliver all that you want to be.

I agree. So what if the "best we can be" in life is something other than financially wealthy? What if the best we can be (in terms of our intrinsic makeup) is simply a loving parent, or a great jazz pianist, or the best damn supermarket trolley collector around?

Yes most definitely, as long as you recognise it and are complete with that existence that is also success, success nearly always is used with wealth connotations, it is expected in an environment where we are discussing investing for financial gains, but here it is always staunchly defended by many if it is discounted to only mean financial success.

I dunno. I just read some of the posts of the likes of Ron around here and, while I have total respect for their skills and dedication, I just can't see how I could possibly emulate their styles and strategies.

There are many experienced investors here. I can only imagine that when you attain financial success there is a sense of responsibility/desire to give back, it is genuine, sadly it has a challenge of turning into a product, once it becomes a product it needs to be marketed, it then becomes an income stream, a business that is where the difficulties arise. There is a fine line between the mission of guiding a participant through investment strategies and the business of guiding the participant through investment strategies.

Take negotiation for example. There has been a lot of talk on negotiation "strategies" and it seems to me that a lot of these rely on an ability to keep a "poker face" - to lie about, or at least disguise, one's true intentions, feelings etc. I find that kind of thing really hard to do. I feel that if I'm not being true to others then I'm not being true to myself. I don't play my cards close to my chest - I lay them out on the table. I know I'm naive in this sense but that's the kind of person I feel most comfortable with being.

So how do I reconcile this with a desire to be moderately successful (as in insuring the future security of my family - I have no desire for more material wealth than I already have) in property investment? How can I get the good deals and negotiate good prices without having to be a little cagey and inscrutable?

Negotiating is a technique and can be learnt, in fact it is a trait that is within all of us, we learn to negotiate from the day that we are born, as a child negotiating with a parent, as a husband negotiating with the wife, whenever we want something, anything we are negotiating. There is nothing cagey and inscrutable about those negotiations (right, ) so it is with negotiating on a purchase.

That is why the investment rules are important, one of your rules could be "never buy a property except 10% bellow market price".

And that's kinda what I was meaning about the personality question. Some of us are simply intrinsically better at certain things than others. Some are great with details. Some are better at more broad-brush scenarios. Still others seem to manage to deal well with both.

Personally I struggle with details. Record-keeping, filing, logs, etc.. they're all just a nuisance to me. I mean, I KNOW they're important but my talents lend themselves to such things about as well as Dubya's talents lend themselves towards a career in diplomacy or rocket science.

I found myself feeling really interested in the idea of buying a certain DVD collection of PI information today. I'm sure it's a wealth of valuable material and constructive advice that many people could potentially benefit greatly from. But then I reflected on my personal ability to focus on and retain information given to me in that kind of format. Sorry, I mean "inability". What might work for some won't necessarily work for others.

DVD's, Seminars, Books are all investments that pay dividends, you just have to be able to recognise the gems within. Only you know which format suits you, but have you practiced each format to decide.

Perhaps "personality" was not quite the right word to have used in my original post. Perhaps the question is more about inherent personal attributes and their implications in terms of property investment?

I agree, inherent personal attributes, again attributes are inherent because of the way we have begun and lived our lives, dare I say the way we were programmed by society, by our experiences, we eventually reach the point where we say these are my inherent personal attributes, worse we say “this is me, this is who I am”, not a sign of success in my world, “I am all there is, all there was and all there will be”.

Rambiling now, but then I write and believe things like “Individuality is a self-conceited myth devised by man to disassociate him from the oneness of being. There is no individuality in the world only life’s experiences separated by the equality of time.”

What has this got to do with property investing, property investing can be a vehicle, to develop "personally".

Cheers, Josko

[Robot]

Sure the right personality is a big help but just concentrate on personal growth and keep evolving your personality, challenge yourself, travel more etc etc.

"Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours". Richard Bach

[David-Suzuki]

Your personality will determine the sort of investor you are.
Just like the sales personality types in the book 'Sales Dogs'.

As far as the guilt expressed by Simple Simon as to negotiation strategies,
there are some shameful ones taught - richmastery springs to mind - which completely go against my sense of integrity.

However, there is no shame in having a good market knowledge. I am offering on 4 properties at the moment, and the agent is telling me my offer is too low, and trying to make me raise my offer 15 percent, quoting as evidence the price for two down the road which sold recently. I have market knowledge, and I know the two in question, because I looked at them too. I also know that there are two major features which the ones that sold for a higher price had, which the ones I will purchase do not have. So, I negotiate, with this evidence, to the agent.

In the end, it is not unethical for me to leave my price at what I am prepared to pay. I am the buyer, and I have a choice. The vendor's choice, and the agent's choice, comes down to what people like me will offer within the time-frame in which they have to sell.

As an investor, I try to find a good deal. However, the vendor has to agree to give me that good deal by selling to me on the price and terms I want.

This is the market. There is no deceit involved from a purchaser's point of view, however there is often great deceit from the vendor's point of view.

I recently discovered an inflated valuation, because of information the vendor gave the valuer which in effect falsified the valuation.

Agents frequently over-quote rental figures, as do vendors. Vendors frequently put family in as 'tenants' 'paying' higher prices than market to make the investment look better.

I, however, am an innocent investor, investigating deals. There is absolutely no shame in offering a price for which you would be prepared to purchase a property which makes it a 'good deal' for you.

If the vendor agrees, you have a deal. If not, try again down the road.

[Gerrard]

Personally I believe with the right strategy applied mechanically anyone can succeed (defining success as having attained wealth that allows for a continuous luxurious lifestyle - if you so choose). Will the person be complete or enjoy that success is reliant on their personality.

I've got to disagree with you on that one ivi. The problem I see is there is no "out of the box" strategy that will work for a wide range of people time and time again. There may be some basic principles (buy under value, CF+, etc) that apply to most people, but every person will have a different reason for investing, a different risk profile, and different skills that influence how they go about it all. I guess this is where the personality part comes in.

It's the people who take and "out of the box" strategy and blindly follow it that will be in trouble over the coming years.

Gerrard

[drelly]

Personality inevitably affects our actions so imho, there is no such thing as "mechanically" investing. You (and your personality) are the only ones making the decisions. It's not just what you decide to do but "how" you do it that affects the outcome... the "how" is very much personality driven.

[Muddle]

SimpleSimon, you underestimate yourself. From your post I can see you have an incredible insight and intelligence. You are obviously unsure about many aspects of property investing and I applaude you for your courage in making these posts.

Every purchase presents its own set of problems. You have to decipher what you see, and try to obtain the best result in your favour. Become more familiar and comfortable talking to vendors and agents by visiting open homes and agents offices. As you have obviously read there are many tricks agents/vendors use in selling a house. You must be aware of these and try and find whatever works for you. There are many strategies used in purchasing investment properties. May I suggest that you try not to change yourself or your personality, just be comfortable with what comes naturally. As long as you are aware of the pitfalls and tricks.

Knowledge is power.

Barry

[Josko]

Personally I believe with the right strategy applied mechanically anyone can succeed (defining success as having attained wealth that allows for a continuous luxurious lifestyle - if you so choose). Will the person be complete or enjoy that success is reliant on their personality.

I've got to disagree with you on that one ivi. The problem I see is there is no "out of the box" strategy that will work for a wide range of people time and time again. There may be some basic principles (buy under value, CF+, etc) that apply to most people, but every person will have a different reason for investing, a different risk profile, and different skills that influence how they go about it all. I guess this is where the personality part comes in.

It's the people who take and "out of the box" strategy and blindly follow it that will be in trouble over the coming years.

Gerrard my words are encompassing, thank you for raising what could be misread, please let me expand and clarify the detail.

I believe if you are not that good with, lets say negotiation or if you are starting out in investing with little experience, "out of the box" practice is a starting point, the point is to practice and experience.

Everything in life can be attained if you set your mind, heart and soul to it, with enough practice and experience you may even become a master at it. So if you want to negotiate well, practice and you will become a good negotiator, so it is with every aspect of investing.

Obviously the risk is great.

Once you start on the journey, the development takes on a meaning relative to your experience in the action and in life over all, you attain a sense of enlightenment, you become a natural, until you are ready to become more.

This does not suit everyone’s thinking, that’s ok I know why.

With negotiation as an example, the main issue is that your objective is to financially profit from the negotiation, if you remove the possible deceit you may encounter from the vendor (which you learn to overcome with practice and experience), you may feel guilty in gaining financially through negotiation, why?, do you really need to disguise your true intentions (what are they), the seller is as much aware of your intentions as you are.

What does “out of the box” mean anyway?

Do you have the deposit?
Do you have the income?
Do you have a loan approved?
Do you have a set of rules?
Do you have a property that fits the rules?

Just practice and experience it.


Does this clarify my view Gerrard?, do you see the possibilities?

[SimpleSimon]

Interesting and thought-provoking responses, thank you.

Josko, you seem to lean towards the latter side of the nature vs nurture debate. I tend to be a little closer to the middle. From my experiences and observations in life it seems to me that we are born with distinctive skill-sets and personality attributes. Sure these can be shaped and enhanced or compensated for through life experience and formal education, but they remain as much a fundamental aspect of who and what we are as does our left or right-handedness, the colour of our skin, hair or eyes, our sexuality or the length of our toes.

“Individuality is a self-conceited myth devised by man to disassociate him from the oneness of being. There is no individuality in the world only life’s experiences separated by the equality of time.”

An interesting choice of words. In a sense you are right, of course. However the fact is that we operate within the paradigm of this "myth" or illusion. We play by the laws that it conforms to, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion But I digress.....

I believe if you are not that good with, lets say negotiation or if you are starting out in investing with little experience, "out of the box" practice is a starting point, the point is to practice and experience

Agreed. However for some people all the practice and experience in the world will never turn them into a concert pianist - they just don't have the inate ability or talent. Same with negotiating, some people have more inate ability to keep their emotions out of it. Some are more able to notice subtle details and clues about a property or an agent's behavior. Some are better at keeping calm under pressure.

But you have served to remind me that practice and experience is what I need and hard work and dedication is how I will experience those. Thanks

David-Suzuki, you make some good points, particularly those about the benefits of market knowledge and its value from a negotiating standpoint.

Your personality will determine the sort of investor you are.
Just like the sales personality types in the book 'Sales Dogs'.

I haven't read the book but I take your point. With the right amount of knowledge no "game-playing" is necessary in negotiating. My goal then, perhaps, is less to do with learning "negotiating skills" than it is to gain a thorough knowledge of the property market. Thanks

Barry, thank you for your kind and encouraging words.

As you have obviously read there are many tricks agents/vendors use in selling a house. You must be aware of these and try and find whatever works for you.

Yes, exactly. In the past I have tended to avoid those who would use deceit in a business sense (or any other sense for that matter ). I have tended to surround myself with friends, aquaintances, professionals, tradespeople etc who I can trust to lay their cards on the table. Thus when an agent tells me that he is expecting someone to deliver an offer in half an hour it is my tendency to believe, or at least want to believe him or her. (In case you haven't gathered by now I'm a lousy poker player LOL). However, I can see that it's the way the game is often played and what I need to do is not so much to learn to play the game as to be able to rise above it and the way to do that - as David-Suzuki points out - is through knowledge. Thanks

There are many ways of gaining knowledge. Making mistakes is one of the more effective ways, but making mistakes with large amounts of family money is not an especially attractive option to me. Another way is to observe the experiences - the mistakes and the successes - of others. That's where this site is an invaluable resource. You people are great in how much you share with and support each other. I'm really happy to have joined and I hope the time will come when I can help others around here a bit more.

Cheers

Simon

[Josko]

Josko, you seem to lean towards the latter side of the nature vs nurture debate.

I was not aware there is such a debate, thank you.

However I defend my view to be from a perspective of the central point of origin.

I do like your words and your view.

Cheers, Josko

[SimpleSimon]

Josko, you seem to lean towards the latter side of the nature vs nurture debate.

I was not aware there is such a debate, thank you.

Some links regarding the ongoing "nature vs nurture" debate for your interest

[AustinWong]

Hi Simple Simon,

I think I have posted this somewhere already..hmm not sure.

I think there are 3 types of people generally.

1) Those with a natural aptitude or talent to succeed in one or everything.
2) Those with the ability through varying degrees of training and hard work be able to succeed.
3) Those whose try but will never get it.

PS. Maybe a fourth...

4) Those who don't really care.

I would say most on this forum are number 2. And we definitely have a few number 1's as well.

[Josko]

Some links regarding the ongoing "nature vs nurture" debate for your interest

Thank you, for a while I was reading it as nature vs nature. After reading some of the detail I value what you have written more.

In reading some of the other posts, partly related to this one, I think I will have the same dilemma as you Simon.

I will prefer to advance with a little less profit and be content with my nature, then to profit from that who is not who I am.

Great to have you here Simon.