Censorship & Independence

[muppet]

Hi CD

You said:

most are from RM ilk anyway.

Personal opinion, heresay or fact?

Regards

[Commercial Dan]

Gut feel, but I don't care what people think anyway, people can say what they like and do. For example Tricky and I go head to head a lot, but I like the guy, at least he has an opinion and some of his comments are interesting.

[Weasel Driver]

Be My Guest

Hello Andrew,

So let me understand what you said above.

If I give you an upsetting nickname and take the piss out of you on a public - thats okay?

Cheers

Marc

I welcome being made fun of. I would love you to scrutinize my background and verify my credentials and see if you can find something to make fun of so that you see I am not thin skinned.

But then I do look silly in shorts so you could call me "Ole Hairy Legs." But here is the rub, I wouldn't care and if I did, I am too old to worry about it.

Monid: You make a point of the fact that Marc and Donna are the owners of PT and do not moderate this thread. Now we hear there are "special rules" regarding this thread.

What is going on here? What is with this new found sensitivity?

Best: Old Weasel - aka Andrew Waite

[kieran]

Unmoderated Posts would be the end of PT!

Marc and Moderators,

Just wanted to say something positive amongst all of this negativity!

Thank you Marc, Donna, Moderators sincerely for your serious efforts to deliver the PT platform, No one can deny you have obviously succeeded in achieving this fantastic property forum in NZ!

Just like no-one can envy the difficulties you all must face when trying to moderate individual posts and your efforts to moderate sometimes seem to attract much more criticism than is warranted, in my opinion.

One of the neat things about PT is that the posts made are not ads (many offshore sites are riddled with 'sales speak' ad posts and little really useful info).

So PT seem to have done a great job of moderating out the purely commercially oriented posts yet they seem to get flak for moderating posts which attack or judge people within the industry?

The one main question for me that needed answering to bring clarity to this topic seems to be this:

Who is qualified to judge posts on PT?
IMHO only PT moderators. No-one else.

Sadly the appreciation of Marc, Donna and the moderators efforts with PT is diminished when they are being accused of moderating posts for some type of commercial gain. Almost sounds like they are guilty by default and now need to justify their stance... WELL THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY DONT HAVE TO!

If you dont like PTs moderation and believe they are being commercially unethical by moderating posts to protect their advertising income then simply choose NOT TO VISIT PT ANYMORE or start your own forum where anything goes. Good luck with that...

Having been a contributor to PT for many years Im convinced that you have NEVER moderated for commercial gain nor would you.

We also know that these days some of the wider media community are now actively reading the posts on PT.

So posts making serious allegations/accusations of unethical behaviour, or about peoples personal lives that are unmoderated would be very dangerous for PT and for anyone posting under their real name. Just think about it... many of the so-called "tall poppies" in the PI industry would become easy targets for anyone seeking to discredit them with no need to provide evidence to back up any claims if PT had no moderation...
Do you think that would enhance or diminish the quality of posts made on PT?

IMHO to cease ALL moderation would result in the PT baby being thrown out with the bathwater!

Thanks again so much for your collective efforts PT!

[Monid]

Regardless of whether anyone's feelings are hurt or whether Olly and Andrew are "man enough to take it" this is somewhat beside the point.

The point is we don't want PT to be a place where name calling and personal attacks are tolerated, even if they don't bother the person. This is why we have the rules, and why even though Olly and Andrew don't mind being personally attacked we will still remove posts that we consider do attack them.

If you have valid points you can make them without resorting to name calling. Resorting to name calling just weakens your case.

David Hunter
PT Mod

[OllyN]

Please Explain Monid

Monid
I am curious to know why you state that there are "special rules for this thread?"
This worries me. Special rules for RM?. Not for others?
What sort of hold do they have over you?
You are running the risk of being viewed as a RM apologist reluctant to let the public see them for what they are- a bunch of spruikers and nothing more.
Why do you think this thread is the most viewed and commented thread of the whole lot (over 110,000 times)?
Because those who can think for them selves can see right through them and know the truth and what they see ain't pretty.

[muppet]

Hi Olly

You said:

Because those who can think for them selves can see right through them and know the truth and what they see ain't pretty.

Then why do they continue to waste their time posting so.

And for all the negative feedback from some, there are a large number of people who have been motivated by you know who, to have made a very noticeable change in their livestyle for the better.

Just like political parties. There are those who can't stand Labour and swear by National and those who can't stand National and swear by Labour or the Greens or the NZ party or the Maori Party or the .............

Unfortunately we just have to put up with whatever we have.

Regards

[OllyN]

In Reply

Muppet
No doubt people have been motivated by RM.
That's not a surprise.
If you put a typewriter in with a cage full of monkeys they will eventually type out the whole of Shakespeare.

[cube]

Olly,

The special rules in place for this thread are that a moderator can remove any post deemed unnecessary to to general discussion - such as re-posting someone's entire (long) post and saying, in a few words "what a load of bollocks", without sensibly adding to the topic.

You may be thick skinned enough to be able to withstand attacks on your business and character, but that doesn't mean that other PT readers, who wish to learn, have to constantly read them.

As moderators, we have emphasised in the past that we can't moderate on matters of truth - it is up to you or whoever else to defend yourself against any allegation that you feel is untruthful.

However, we can moderate, as per the rules, on matters of 'harrasment' or 'neagtive comments'.

So, I can't say,

Joe Bloggs is a fat, gay, black, jewish git

(even if I do sign my real name), but I can say

Joe Bloggs is a crap plumber - he did some work for me, and look at these photos of the result. I implore you not to use his services.

so long as I use my real name when posting.

If you see a post that you think violates the rules (even if you personally don't mind being abused), please report it so that everyone doesn't have to read it from now until the end of the internet!

For the record, a considerable number of reported posts are moderated in the same way, but there is a significant minority that escape the axe because they are either determined to not be negative or to not be harassing - its simply a case of the reporter being over-sensitive to valid criticism.

cube

[muppet]

Hi Olly

You said:

Why do you think this thread is the most viewed and commented thread of the whole lot (over 110,000 times)?

Because the mods keep checking everyone's posts to see if they are trying to make a name for themselves.

Regards

[xris]

Oh well, why not chip in here too?

As someone who gets away with more, perhaps a lot more, than most others I would also like to comment.

I agree with Kieran that moderation is critically important to any forum like this. However I would prefer to say that this can be seen from both sides: too much is just as bad as too little and perhaps even worse than too little.

I believe the real debate here is about the level of moderation, or put another way about where to draw the line. This really does come down to personal opinion about what is and what is not below the belt and unacceptable and as such neither side can really win the argument.

Personally I have no problem with poking fun at people’s names or even their clothing style or personal appearance; others seem to object to this though. I would never bring anybody’s home or personal life into a discussion here although others seem to do this. You may recall my recent displeasure expressed when a poster put somebody else’s home address on to this site.

Another consideration is that some new posters come in firing off insults all over the place. Their credibility has not been established and so I believe they should be moderated more strongly than a long standing member who does exactly the same thing. It does not mean that it is one rule for one and another for someone else but rather that the long standing member’s post can be seen more objectively in context with his/her other posts. And some leeway therefore given.

We then also come to the point that if an accusation is true then it usually needs to be brought up in way that the recipient might deem to be a personal attack. I will mention one of my own threads here. Recently I started a thread about Clint Taylor and I began by heavily criticing him and accusing him of all sorts of failings. The language I used was flowery and to the point. (Much to my surprise this has been by far the most popular of my threads, by the way.) I expected to be severly thrashed for my flowery language directed at Clint but thankfully no. But, what I said was, in my opinion, nothing more than honest opinion based on what I could see. What later happened on that thread simply made me more certain of my opinion. Yes, it was damning against Clint but in my opinion not personally but rather in a business capacity. And if what I said is true then have I not done a service to other members by exposing a potential pothole to be avoided? If that thread had been moderated then who would have won except Clint?
Now, about people’s potential unwillingness to contribute here in their own name, I think this is an overstated problem. If you have nothing to hide and have something of substance to contribute then I do not see there being a problem? What personal attacks are directed against Paul (superdad) or Kieran or Glenn? None. Why? Because there’s nothing to “attack”. I gave/give a hard time to pooombah but not I hope personally, but against what he states to others and what I sometimes think is wrong and misguided. He does however do a lot that I personally admire and for which I respect him.

Back to the point. I would like to see little change made to the moderation policy. On the whole I believe it is self policing and only occasionally going off the rails. This Blue Chip thread is one that has lost all direction and purpose and I almost would like to see it shut down. Richmastery? Well, boring at times, but there is still plenty to talk about. How must PJ be smiling – that thread is the best form of free advertising he’s ever had.

xris

Oh, and what is so bad about CD? He goes on a bit at times but I have never read anything that would be seen as below the belt. A lot of what he says is of more value to investors here than most of the glossy nonsense some people put out.

[Marc]

Monid
I am curious to know why you state that there are "special rules for this thread?"
This worries me. Special rules for RM?. Not for others?
What sort of hold do they have over you?
You are running the risk of being viewed as a RM apologist reluctant to let the public see them for what they are- a bunch of shallow spruikers and nothing more.
Why do you think this thread is the most viewed and commented thread of the whole lot (over 110,000 times)?
Because those who can think for them selves can see right through them and know the truth and what they see ain't pretty.

Hello Olly,

The rule applies to the whole forum. RM has my focus now because its the soap box for the forum members who love to personally attack people.

If you look at the posts of support today and the emails I have been sent telling me I am doing the right thing... well I think the community is sick of the 10 forum members who use Pt as thier personal soap box.

To be honest if anyone doesn't like us stopping personal attacks then leave our forum now - believe me Pt will live on - if you continue with it we will ban you - its quite simple really - Pt is not a soap box for personal attacks.

Cheers

Marc

[Fuzo]

Marc,

I think your stance is a breath of fresh air. Its the professionalism that many members of this community have been waiting for for a long time.

I think you will get far more participation on these forums when they are free of the bully boy tactics, low blows and personal intimidation because people feel able to contribute without being hijacked or kneecapped at every turn.

PT is a great resource but at times its full of behaviour that would not be tolerated by 5 year old school kids let alone grown adults that profess to be real estate industry leaders.

I for one applaud the stand you have taken, it can only enhance PTs reputation and strength members participation. Well Done.

Maybe Olly and Andrew can start there own forum talking to each other, that way everyones needs would be met.

[Weasel Driver]

Everyone Back in their Cages!

This reminds me of Christmas at the San Francisco Zoo! Bait the tiger and you could get eaten.

I would respectfully request that if Marc decides I am persona non grata he should exclude me from PropertyTalk. His largest advertising client would be delighted and PT will continue on just fine but with potentially a little less credibility.

The problem is as publishers we cannot have this both ways. We are either editorially unfettered from advertisers positions or not. Sadly most web platforms do not adhere to true editorial disciplines such as the Chinese Wall between editorial and advertising, objectivity, fact checking, spell checking, truth, justice and The Kiwi Way!

Any censorship of facts, fact based criticism, objective questions or opinions, short of plain blasphemy, promoting illegal behaviour or bad taste, is like being a little bit pregnant - You either is or you aint!

Marc has a tough position here and I must publicly apologize to him for any jeopardy I may have put his ad revenue or business in.

I for one am going to stop using shorthand, allegorical stories and fairy tales that imply name calling or the bashing of muddled educator ethics. I suddenly realise we have stopped teaching the classics and romance languages in Kiwi schools so people are forgiven for missing this arcane stuff. O me miserum.

This Weasel is headed for bingo and then the barn!

Best: Andrew Waite -

[Commercial Dan]

Now now

I think you will get far more participation on these forums when they are free of the bully boy tactics, low blows and personal intimidation because people feel able to contribute without being hijacked or kneecapped at every turn.

PT is a great resource but at times its full of behaviour that would not be tolerated by 5 year old school kids let alone grown adults that profess to be real estate industry leaders.

Just remember, take life seriously but never yourself.

One of the key essentials of property investment is a sense of humour...