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Martin Dunn Bags Neil Jenman

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  • Martin Dunn Bags Neil Jenman

    NZ Herald, 23.06.2004

    We're no cowboys - agent

    By ANNE GIBSON
    A New Zealand real estate agent campaigning to sell Auckland apartments to Australians says he cannot keep up with demand from Sydney.

    But City Sales boss Martin Dunn said he was irked by allegations this month from Australian real estate agent and industry crusader Neil Jenman that Auckland apartment marketers and sellers had become the "Queensland cowboys" of Australasian property.

    Dunn said Auckland agents were not selling overpriced apartments to Australians in revenge for Queensland timeshare scams wrought on New Zealanders.

    "I am particularly sensitive to our being branded as the Queensland cowboys. We are deluged with Australians. Without any advertising in Australia, we sold 14 suites out of 28 to Australians last month in The Statesman at 1 Parliament St and we are marketing more on The Statesman in Sydney next month and Melbourne in August."

    City Sales has a marketing programme in the Sydney Morning Herald to advertise 52 units in the 229-unit The Statesman near the High Court. Studios are selling from $150,000 and two-bedroom units are priced from $320,000. The penthouses, each about 70sq m, were sold for $475,000 and $550,000, Dunn said.

    Australians were keen to buy Auckland apartments because they could get a 7 per cent net return, compared with a 2 per cent return in Sydney.

    Dunn also rejected criticism from Jenman about Auckland apartments being overpriced for Australians but cheaper for New Zealanders.

    "There is no two-tier marketing done to my knowledge in New Zealand and the implication that we are doing to the Australians what they have traditionally done to New Zealanders - a price for locals and one for out-of-towners - is unjustified and cannot be substantiated."

    He was responding to criticism this month from Jenman, an anti-auction real estate agent who visited an apartment project site at 96 Symonds St in Auckland, where McLeod Group and Southside Group want to build a $38 million tower.

    Jenman saw the project as an example of hyped prices being aggressively marketed in Australia.

    "Jenman has very cleverly confused the public to the point of prostituting himself against his own profession and paints a plausible but appalling picture of what we do," Dunn said.

    "He seduces the public and a number of salespeople with superb rhetoric by deliberately confusing the term customer and applying it to both vendor and purchaser.

    "His other plausible trick is to profess that agents know what a property will sell for - which is insincere, at my most charitable - and that if you ask, purchasers will declare what their highest buying ability is. Jenman's arguments deny human nature but are extremely logical to the unsophisticated."

    Jenman said from Sydney that the Auckland apartments were over-priced. He disagreed with Dunn but said it was natural an apartment realtor would defend the business.

    "Of course Mr Dunn would say that. He is a real estate agent. The critics are always agents, not the consumers."

    Jenman said he had researched Auckland thoroughly. He had spoken to many New Zealanders when he visited in the past few weeks and they told him the apartments were overpriced.

  • #2
    Hi Zippy and welcome to PT.

    It would appear that everyone is pushing their own hidden agendas.


    Regards,
    Marcus.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Zippy, congratulations on making your first post.

      For the records that article is at: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/b...toryID=3574176

      "He seduces the public and a number of salespeople with superb rhetoric by deliberately confusing the term customer and applying it to both vendor and purchaser.
      Personally I think this is a problem every agent I've ever dealt with has had.
      Wealth vs Health - why have both when you can gorge on one?

      Comment


      • #4
        zippy, unusual first post. Or should we call you Martin?
        Until everyone notices that the emperor has no clothes, I will remain Cashed4crash

        Comment


        • #5
          Question for Kieran

          Kieran,

          Your web site has carried the two other media stories regarding these apartments. But the above story by the NZ Herald which gives some balance to the arguement is missing from your web site.

          Is there any reason for this?

          Thanks for taking the time to reply.

          Zippy

          Comment


          • #6
            Auckland cowboys aye ... I thought queenstown was where the real-estate cowboys were ... *OUCH!* at those prices!

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello Zippy,

              I must admit that I am always a bit suspicious when a relatively new poster joins the forums and starts implying foul play by well respected forum contributors...

              But to answer your comment, I peruse hundreds of articles every month and choose which articles to display or not display. I have already displayed a good range of articles with both sides of this story including some from developers / agents who disagree with Neils (and my own) opinion, so it seemed of no consequence to exclude a real estate agents article which seems to be promoting a specific inner city apartment block.

              Oh and before you ask the next obvious question which has already been asked of me recently (by an anonymous person who emailed Neil Jenman trying to discredit me!) of why my company has presented 5 apartment deals this year... here are my comments:

              "As I have said there is a serious oversupply of apartments on the market in Auckland and many of them are being sold at unrealistic prices. Which is why my company is scouring the hundreds of apartments on the market right now to find apartments which are priced realistically. Out of over 1,000 apartments on the market here right now (including those available off the plans) we have only found a handful (5 so far) that we have been prepared to offer to our client base. These apartments have been selected on the basis of providing the strongest positive cashflow (BEFORE any tax advantages) that we can find and these calculations are based on conservative valuations and conservative rental estimates.

              The apartments in Hobson St that my company currently has had for sale each have reputable valuations and are being sold at a large discount to those valuations. Both valuers are members of the Institute of Valuers (each one has been done by a different valuation firm). The vendors understand that to sell these properties relatively quickly they need to accept a price which is under the current registered valuation as there are so many apartments for sale right now. We used a discounted rental estimate (for the 3 brm apartment 6B) of $350/week even though the independent rental assessment is for $390 - $440 /week because we perceived that rental estimate is too high based on the other independent assessment we got on the 4 bedroom apartment 1A of $380- $420 / week.

              So I stand by my message that the Auckland inner city apartment market is oversupplied and overvalued and requires caution with any purchasing decisions. That doesn’t mean that EVERY apartment is a bad deal.

              Sometimes my comments on the state of the property market will be negative (if indeed the market is overvalued or looking likely to suffer a decline) but that doesn’t mean we stop dealing in properties altogether. It just means we have to work harder to source the best deals we can find.
              There would certainly be an ethical conflict if I was consistently talking the market up to sell more properties but I simply call the market as I see it. In fact at times my property dealing company suffers from my market commentary but I am committed to commenting on the market ‘as it really is’ even if other parts of my group of companies suffer.

              In the short term no doubt this results in my companies selling less but this is where our integrity is clearly evidenced... not in which news articles we display!"
              Kieran Trass

              Comment


              • #8
                Kieran

                Kieran,

                I have no grudge against you and although I might be a new poster as no doubt were all contributors here when they started. The forums value to me to is to be able to ask questions, participate in debate and learn from one another.

                Thank you for taking the time to reply, however your reply has created some questions I hope you don't mind if I ask.

                1/ If the apartment market is over supplied as you maintain, what is the sense in trying to sell investors into this market? Surely there is a higher risk for investors because of the over supply as market values and rental prices may crash?

                2/ The Herald Article quoted "Jenman said he had researched Auckland thoroughly. He had spoken to many New Zealanders when he visited in the past few weeks and they told him the apartments were overpriced."

                You appear to share this view from your forum reply and comments in the other Herald article referring to the same development.

                My concern is this, where is the evidence that the apartments at 96 Symonds St that you refer to in the Herald article are overpriced?

                You see I am an investor in that building and if the apartments are overpriced I want to see the evidence so I can do something about it.

                Kieran, your help would be much appreciated.

                Zippy

                Comment


                • #9
                  The thing about apartments is that you cant generalise. The expression Location, location, location has more relevance than any other type of property.Each project has to be assesed on its own merits. McLeod Group , who promoted 96 and Cityzone and others(like Conrad whon I beleive Kieran is referring too)) have a very firm policy of offering "pre release" prices to their existing buyers and then as the project is progressivly sold they may increase the prices. Also some developers have had to do this because they have been caught by increases in construction cost during the selldown. The valuers are always aware of this and adjust the valns accordingly. That is why you are seeing good resales in the secondary market because the valns have gone up. Some use this increase to create a "discount" when really the pricing may have been the same at first release( are you listening ESC and Investors Forum?)
                  The Jenman thing is that he generalises. If he started talking about rates per square meter I'd take him more seriously and believe him. Oh and its actually Australians ripping off Aussies, not Nzers. The Aussies come over here,buy in bulk for a "discount"(see above) then add on 25-30,000 and sell on.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mars

                    Mars,

                    You raise good points. I agree that Jenman makes dangerous generalisations and I suspect Kieran has to in this instance.

                    I think this is an opportunity for them to front up and provide the evidence to support their claims (made publicly through the NZ Herald and on their web sites) that the apartments at 96 Symonds St are overpriced.

                    I and many others in this forum wait patiently to see the evidential proof.

                    At least that way I'll know where I and many other 96 Symonds St buyers stand with our apartments.

                    Zippy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Copy of email I sent to Kieran

                      Here is a copy of an email I sent Kieran this evening asking him to kindly reply to my post above.

                      Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:31:28 +1000 (EST)
                      From: zippy
                      Subject: Answer to Zippys Question on PropertyTalk Forums
                      To: [email protected]

                      Kieran,

                      On Tuesday the 16th July 2004 I asked you a number of questions on the propertytalk forum and would appreciate it if you would be kind enough to reply.

                      My questions related to comments that you made in these articles:

                      1/ http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/b...n=general',500

                      2/ http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsNews1.php?id=254

                      3/ http://www.propertytalk.co.nz/module...pic&t=1399

                      This is an important issue to me and many others in the building at 96 Symonds St and I can only assume that if you made statements in the media that this development is overpriced that you would have the courtesy and integrity to supply us with the evidence confirming this fact.

                      I and many other apartment investors await your reply.

                      Regards

                      Zippy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Zippy,

                        First of all my belated reply to a post last week has nothing to do with my courtesy or integrity. I find it intriguing that your latest post implies some foul play on my part by not answering your question immediately... when in fact I have been away on a retreat (i.e. No Mobile, No Internet).

                        You will find that I have already provided the answers to your first two questions in my earlier post above.

                        My concern is this, where is the evidence that the apartments at 96 Symonds St that you refer to in the Herald article are overpriced?
                        The apartments at 96 Symonds St were just one block being marketed to Australians (and used as an example). There are many more apartments being marketed to them as well. The evidence that many inner city apartments are overpriced is everywhere and has been well documented, (i.e. it's not just my opinion). The studio apartments they were refering to at 96 Symonds St had a price of over $150,000 NZD.

                        I agree that Jenman makes dangerous generalisations and I suspect Kieran has to in this instance.
                        I don't make dangerous generalizations and I am baffled as to why you think I had to make a generalisation I never made... (or perhaps you meant has too?). Either way I did not make any dangerous generalisation.

                        If you also saw the Australian Today Tonight Documentary you would know that the production company used the angle that this was a kiwi real estate scam... (i.e. overinflated prices for Australians) but when I was asked by Neil if this was the case or if their was any 2 tier marketing going on (ie 1 price for kiwis and 1 price for Australians) I clearly stated that was not the case. However I also stated that we were spoilt for choice by the sheer volume of apartments available and under construction (but not fully sold) at the moment.

                        You see I am an investor in that building and if the apartments are overpriced I want to see the evidence so I can do something about it.
                        I also stated that to pay over $150,000 for a studio apartment was not sensible as their are literally dozens available for much less (Realenz website shows over 30 with asking prices between $120,000 and $130,000)

                        For the article from the Today Tonight show in Australia see http://seven.com.au/todaytonight/story/?id=15330

                        Zippy,

                        I am concerned that you have made no less than 5 accusations against me but you have only made 5 posts on this forum.

                        My trustworthy reputation precedes me, I am no new kid on the block and my opinions are very well respected and often sought after by the media.

                        Why don't you call me in person and I will be happy to discuss your concerns and your personal circumstances in more detail. You can call my office on (09) 638-3350. I look forward to your call.
                        Kieran Trass

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Guys, if you are going to talk price , then at least mention size. Because without size the price means nothing. If a $150,000 studio was 60 sqm , then that is $2500 per square metre which is cheap. But a 30 sqm is $5000 psqm which is getting up there.If the $120,000 studio is 24sqm then it is also $5000 psqm which is too high.Then again I see quality LEASEHOLD apartments in the Viaduct going for $8,000 per sqm and no-one is complaining about them being overpriced, certainly not the Valuers. And Zippy, Kieran does have an excellant reputation. What he does seems to be open and transparent which is in marked contrast to some of the others.I think he also practices what he preaches in that he actually owns property. (again not like some)I say again,comparing apartments is hard, there are many variables and really you need to be specific about each one. We are starting to see Banks take that approach when they determine what level of lending they will do against certain buildings.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Kieran

                            Thanks for the reply. To be honest Kieran I'm not interested in your noble reputation or your insecurities about me asking some hard questions. I just want to know the facts. I'm an investor in a development that you have publicly said is "inflated" and "overpriced".

                            Kieran, let me remind you of the quotes you have made....

                            The apartments at 96 Symonds St were just one block being marketed to Australians (and used as an example). There are many more apartments being marketed to them as well. The evidence that many inner city apartments are overpriced is everywhere and has been well documented, (i.e. it's not just my opinion). The studio apartments they were refering to at 96 Symonds St had a price of over $150,000 NZD.
                            Trass said Australians were paying $150,000 for studio apartments in Auckland which appeared to be an inflated price.
                            He met Trass, who told him that many Auckland apartments were being developed by Australian firms and promotion of these units to Australians reminded him of how over-priced Gold Coast apartments were once sold to New Zealanders.
                            "The irony of it all! Remember the Gold Coast properties being sold to Kiwis at inflated prices in the 1990s?" Trass said.
                            Standing outside the car park that is 96 Symonds Street, Trass said the Auckland apartment market was “seriously over-supplied”. To Australians, the prices may seem cheap and the returns great, but, according to Trass, the prices Aussies are paying are too high, way too high. And, as for those great returns, at best they appear exaggerated.
                            Trass said that the method of selling Auckland apartments to Australians reminded him of how over-priced Gold Coast apartments were once sold to New Zealanders. “So, you’re ripping us off in revenge are you?” I asked. With a wry smile, Trass said, “A lot of these developments are controlled by Australians.”
                            Kieran

                            1/ Where is "the evidence that many inner city apartments are overpriced is everywhere"? Where is the evidence! Not generalisations, specific factual evidence.

                            2/ In fact where is the specific evidence that the apartments at 96 Symonds St are "inflated", and "over-priced" like "Gold Coast apartments" as you claim?

                            3/ Where is the evidence the apartment prices at 96 Symonds St are "inflated prices"?

                            4/ Where is the evidence the "great returns, at best they appear exaggerated" at 96 Symonds St?


                            Kieran you have publicly attacked this building as an investment in several mediums. Damaging my investment and that of the developer. We deserve to know what fundemental evidence you have to make these claims. Not market generalisations, specifics on our building at 96 Symonds St the one building you singled out and critisised!

                            Your quote above says:
                            The apartments in Hobson St that my company currently has had for sale each have reputable valuations and are being sold at a large discount to those valuations. Both valuers are members of the Institute of Valuers (each one has been done by a different valuation firm). The vendors understand that to sell these properties relatively quickly they need to accept a price which is under the current registered valuation as there are so many apartments for sale right now. We used a discounted rental estimate (for the 3 brm apartment 6B) of $350/week even though the independent rental assessment is for $390 - $440 /week because we perceived that rental estimate is too high based on the other independent assessment we got on the 4 bedroom apartment 1A of $380- $420 / week.

                            So I stand by my message that the Auckland inner city apartment market is oversupplied and overvalued and requires caution with any purchasing decisions. That doesn’t mean that EVERY apartment is a bad deal.
                            Kieran, the 96 Symonds St apartments have "each have reputable valuations" by "valuers are members of the Institute of Valuers" just like your super hot Hobson St deals.

                            So the obvious question is, how can the valuer be so right when valuing your property deals and so wrong valuing the ones you critisise at 96 Symonds St?

                            Furthermore how can you make public statements about a specific development at 96 Symonds St that has damaged the value of the investment for all investors in the development when you then admit "That doesn’t mean that EVERY apartment is a bad deal".

                            Zippy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Wow Zippy, what a huge response. I see you take yet another dig at me in the form of some apparent insecurities.

                              The questions you ask are not hard and I stand by my comments that some apartments are inflated and overpriced. But you have misinterpreted the journalists comments for mine in several instances. The articles that were written use small and selective quotes from me and then are 'filled' with the journalists comments like ... the "great returns, at best they appear exaggerated" at 96 Symonds St

                              Please understand that my comments may from time to time do influence the decisons made by some investors and I apologise if this has affected your investment. Unfortunately there is a downside to being a market commentator because I tell it like it is and there is clearly an oversupply of inner city apartments in Auckland now and it will only get worse in the next 6 months or so. The story about Auckland apartments was told outside just 1 apartment block which was being heavily marketed to Australians at the time (96 Symonds St) and when I considered what else was available at the time then yes these apartments were at inflated prices when you consider the studios at $157,000 and also $370,000 for a 3 brm apartment that apparently will rent out for $600/wk seemed a bit rich.

                              I wish you all the best with your investments and my invitation for your phone call remains open.
                              Kieran Trass

                              Comment

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