Implications of CCTV cameras with audio in NZ?

[Shalodge]

You cant be recorded by a third party but you can record a private conversation (and not tell anyone) if you are one of the parties to it. If you want to record a conversation between parties and you are not one of those parties, then it will be illegal to do so unless the conversation is not a 'private' one. (See definition in Sec 216).

A private conversation is one carried out with the expectation of privacy. This is Teapot tape stuff and the argument there was .. can you expect a private conversation in a public cafe. The answer was yes.

[Perry]

Right - I see what you mean.

[Shalodge]

A cctv camera that records sound could potentially record a 'private conversation' even if it is a public place. As a general rule CCTV does not have audio for that reason.

So the answer to the original question," Can my cctv system record audio as well?" is basically no as per Spacemans reply. Unless you can be sure that you will not be recording private conversations (to which you are not a party).

[props4u]

Thanks Perry - Evidently can do little until such time I reach grand total of ten P's - Normally a lurker but maybe ... and with any luck ... I may just be able to make it on this thread, provided I have valid comment or question.

[props4u]

[h=2][SIZE=3][FONT=arial]Section 216 of the Crimes Act.

2 years imprisonment if you put a tape recorder under the boss's desk intending to record his conversation. This is the section that John used in his complaint re the teapot tapes.

Note the exception if one party agrees. Therefore you can record your conversations without telling the other party if you want to catch them out. Privacy and rights were never intended to be a shield for the guilty and its your conversation as much as the other parties.

It was my gut feeling all along, being only way of combating and dealing with bunch of callous liars exposing them for what they are ... Thanks for enlightening quotes, crimes act etc

[beakernz]

A cctv camera that records sound could potentially record a 'private conversation' even if it is a public place. As a general rule CCTV does not have audio for that reason.

So the answer to the original question," Can my cctv system record audio as well?" is basically no as per Spacemans reply. Unless you can be sure that you will not be recording private conversations (to which you are not a party).

Well, I guess no one can really know if someone is recording audio at the time or not. If I record video and the audio is on a separate channel, and it all hits the fan outside then I have some options:

1) show the authorities only the video feed, then there is no implication of recording conversation

2) if the audio proves non conversational in public (screaming, shouting, brawling) then I can include the audio as well.

I'm not sure my mic would have the ability to listen in on conversations anyway, I think it would just highlight the fact that they are yelling obscenities more than anything. But yes, it's good to know that if my audio catches conversational material I should delete it and not make use of it to anyone.

[props4u]

Well, I guess no one can really know if someone is recording audio at the time or not. If I record video and the audio is on a separate channel, and it all hits the fan outside then I have some options:

1) show the authorities only the video feed, then there is no implication of recording conversation

2) if the audio proves non conversational in public (screaming, shouting, brawling) then I can include the audio as well.

I'm not sure my mic would have the ability to listen in on conversations anyway, I think it would just highlight the fact that they are yelling obscenities more than anything. But yes, it's good to know that if my audio catches conversational material I should delete it and not make use of it to anyone.

Am glad issue has been clarified with help from Shalodge and others

You may not necessarily be forced into deleting it altogether OR be prevented from showing video because it contains conversational material - and ultimately depending on whether you can transfer such clips to your pc - and providing you have the necessary software on your pc (not too hard to get), you can edit undesirable audio parts out of the video clips altogether without losing or having to forfeit the video

If you need help this way you are welcome to PM me (but please indicate you have done so here so I can check it out)

What I need to know is how to record phone conversations, what device does one need for this, does anyone here know?

NB - Standard phones recordings max out after 2 minutes

[spaceman]

Well, I guess no one can really know if someone is recording audio at the time or not. If I record video and the audio is on a separate channel, and it all hits the fan outside then I have some options:

1) show the authorities only the video feed, then there is no implication of recording conversation

2) if the audio proves non conversational in public (screaming, shouting, brawling) then I can include the audio as well.

I'm not sure my mic would have the ability to listen in on conversations anyway, I think it would just highlight the fact that they are yelling obscenities more than anything. But yes, it's good to know that if my audio catches conversational material I should delete it and not make use of it to anyone.

Be careful, technically I'm pretty sure the crime is recording the audio not what you do with it...... As it can be hard to prove what you do with it.

Take a toilet cam for example, you could claim that you never watched the videos just recorded it "in case" there was a problem. The police would have a hard time proving you were a dirty perv but you've still broken the law by making the recording even if you truly hadn't used it for self gratification

Cheers
spaceman

[beakernz]

Makes sense. However when you look at the NZ legal system and how soft they can be.... I can't imagine a decent citizen having the book thrown at them for recording some hooligans on the street. I mean did the dude that recorded the Prime Minister even get a slap on the wrist? Did he get a big fine and jail time? And that was the prime minister. I've never even gotten a speeding ticket or broken a law of any kind before. If I did inadvertently record some conversation taking place on the street, what could be the worst outcome for someone who has never committed an offense in his life, a family man that has his house under siege on the weekends and is just trying to stop it. I can't imagine they would lock me up or throw the book at me. I would think a moderate fine, community service or just a stiff warning not to do it again. It would be interesting to see some cases of this and the outcomes.

[spaceman]

Fair enough that you think you won't get hung drawn and quartered....I hope and think you wouldn't as well......but that wasn't my train of thought.

I was more thinking along the lines of.....

You catch these miscreants in the act, dead bang to rights with your recording only to be told that since the recording is illegal you can't use it......miscreants get off scott free and your hand has been tipped......think Urewera terrorism charges

Cheers
Spaceman

[beakernz]

Fair enough that you think you won't get hung drawn and quartered....I hope and think you wouldn't as well......but that wasn't my train of thought.

I was more thinking along the lines of.....

You catch these miscreants in the act, dead bang to rights with your recording only to be told that since the recording is illegal you can't use it......miscreants get off scott free and your hand has been tipped......think Urewera terrorism charges

Cheers
Spaceman

Yeah that's a good point. Well, we are meeting soon with a community constable. I plan to show him my setup and get his take on things. He might say "sure record the audio of them going nuts in the street" or he might say "I prefer you not record audio as that will not help your cause". I think I'll let him "drive" how I gather evidence and go with that. In that case if it did hit the fan I could always say "but, the constable told me to!". We seem to be making progress with the landlord though. They have apparently been sick and not seen the property for a while. They gave me an email address and I sent photos. At this point I'm assuming they are horrified of what I sent (rubbish everywhere and on the street, smashed windows, etc). They claim they are meeting with the tenants this wed.

[Perry]

What I need to know is how to record phone conversations, what
device does one need for this, does anyone here know?

Most any standard dictaphone with an earpiece attachment will
record what's said and heard. Often, older style answerphones
have a 'memo' function. I.e. it records two ways of a conversation.

[props4u]

Most any standard dictaphone with an earpiece attachment will
record what's said and heard. Often, older style answerphones
have a 'memo' function. I.e. it records two ways of a conversation.

Long ago but since lost through moving, I had mic with suction cap for sticking onto a phone, with lead and jack to plug into recording device, worked quite well in fact perfectly, bought from chain of electronic shops called "tandy" (alas, not in nz) - Have since yesterday surfed around and come across some home made jobies, I suspect can work but remains to be seen tested and proven, however, can't focus on that right now because like "beakernz", am bogged down dealing with some undesirable entities - Have to do it when I can and guess I will eventually get around to it as a break from the ongoing nightmare we are having to live thru due to such entities - Thanks Perry - BTW, when I eventually put my ex-soldering experience into action, will let you know if successful

[Perry]

Here's an example.

[props4u]

Yeah that's a good point. Well, we are meeting soon with a community constable. I plan to show him my setup and get his take on things. He might say "sure record the audio of them going nuts in the street" or he might say "I prefer you not record audio as that will not help your cause". I think I'll let him "drive" how I gather evidence and go with that. In that case if it did hit the fan I could always say "but, the constable told me to!". We seem to be making progress with the landlord though. They have apparently been sick and not seen the property for a while. They gave me an email address and I sent photos. At this point I'm assuming they are horrified of what I sent (rubbish everywhere and on the street, smashed windows, etc). They claim they are meeting with the tenants this wed.

beakernz - Like yourself, am squeeky clean not even traffic offense to my name. Yet I've been called everything under the sun including perv, sicko, peeper AND recently allegedly am supposed to have threatened two of them (separate addresses) with a machete (because one of their visitors once saw me using machete in garden and which also shows how they communicate well together in conspiracy).

Holy moley, if someone had threatened me with machete I'd be calling police immediately. Mysteriously, pol have not been around to interview me about such action I allegedly took

Some good news - Was recently pleased if not proud I was instrumental in getting one of their regular visitors, who turned out to be a car thief, arrested. I was on phone with pol and it was all on within a minute, 7 pol cars plus overhead chopper.

While I was still on phone reporting activities to pol, Perp was about to leave but discovered he was blocked by pol, reversed quickly and dove out of stolen car taking off on foot across many properties, leaving it in motion. It came to rest only after crunching stationary parked car. Our visitor's car!

He gave pol a good run for their money but was eventually caught. They lost him momentarily but not quite because of chopper. Perp turned out to be already on their wanted list - for failing to appear in court over a year earlier. Lo and behold, Judge let him out again on bail ... grrr ... unbelievable ... What guarantees can Judge give us he won't be out stealing cars again??? ... Judges are too far removed from realities of life because they don't have to live next door to sc*mb*gs ... Perps have more rights than victims!!! ... Am now strong supporter of 3 strikes and you're out policy ... I'd be only to happy to pay more in taxes to house them in jail!!! They shouldn't be allowed home detention ... far too soft!!! ... Ok I've had my rant and rave, besides which, isn't exactly right forum for this

And not that any of above is of consolation to you (beakernz), you have my sympathy because from different perspective, I believe your situation is tougher than ours, in which case I would recommend following:

ONE
Before discussing your cctv and while offering your property/premises to house their equipment, ask/request from comm constable that they install their own surveillance equipment on your property and see how that goes, his reaction etc

My theory (requiring your concurrence) being and based on their behavior as described is suggestive of meths/drugs use. If you agree with this theory you can use this as basis of your request for pol surveillance equipment, to monitor traffic etc

TWO
Keep register of their visitors rego numbs as well and check them out here
www police govt nz/stolen/vehicles
Replace spaces with dots (being a freshie, can't post links here just yet)

THREE
Been there done that, successfully I might add - Don't hesitate to call Noise Control - Its just too late in the night right now, I have to go - Will tell you more in next post since there are ways and means of pursuing this avenue, best wait until I post it in next day or two as soon as I can

Lastly, and I address this to spaceman and perry too - While I believe it to be perfectly legal I wouldn't mind your opinions of it too - I have video clip would like you to see and comment on. Problem is until such time am ready to unleash it, it has to remain private thus may not put it up say on youtube or other similar - Therefore, if you can suggest how/where to store it, for you to access it, that would help - It may not go public or beyond three of you because I don't want them to know or learn beforehand what I have, before am ready to confront them with such crucial evidence through legal channels - Cheers, All the best beakernz with your pol meet