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  • Selecting a business or investment partner

    Dear Investors,

    I have worked with a lot of people (hundreds) in business and property over the years and have some advice for those entering into any sort of investment or business partnerships.

    Don't rush into these unless you have known the people at close personal range for at least a year. I have read that the most distructive type of partner to have is a narcissist. I first read about this mental illness when I was reading a book called "Mike Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man" (Please understand that no offence is intended by quoting this title name) on Mike Moore, a US anti-corportate activist. This was after reading two of his books - Stupid White Men and Dude Where's My Country http://www.michaelmoore.com/ and it offered an interesting perspective.

    The part that is relevant to all this was a 10 point checklist in one of the chapters on identifying people who have the mental illness known as Narcissism. Mike Moore has been alledged as having this illness, but the thing I found interesting was the research on how common this illness is especially amongst males.

    I thought I'd post the symptoms for people to use as a checklist when assessing potential investment or business partners.

    Symptoms of Narcissism

    Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met to be for the person to be diagnosed as a marcissist:
    • Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
    • Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
    • Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)
    • Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply)
    • Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations
    • Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends
    • Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
    • Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her
    Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted
    Some of the language in the criteria above is based on or summarized from:


    American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition, Text Revision (DSM IV-TR). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.The text in italics is based on:
    Sam Vaknin. (2003). Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited, fourth, revised, printing. Prague and Skopje: Narcissus Publication.

    I also found on doing further research that advanced cases of narcissism are are also highly likely to exhibit "Serial Bully" traits as well.

    The serial bully
    How to spot signs and symptoms of serial bullies, sociopaths and psychopaths
    including the sociopathic behaviour of the industrial psychopath and the corporate psychopath
    The serial bully:
    • is a convincing, practised liar and when called to account, will make up anything spontaneously to fit their needs at that moment
    • has a Jekyll and Hyde nature - is vile, vicious and vindictive in private, but innocent and charming in front of witnesses; no-one can (or wants to) believe this individual has a vindictive nature - only the current target of the serial bully's aggression sees both sides; whilst the Jekyll side is described as "charming" and convincing enough to deceive personnel, management and a tribunal, the Hyde side is frequently described as "evil"; Hyde is the real person, Jekyll is an act
    • excels at deception and should never be underestimated in their capacity to deceive
    • uses excessive charm and is always plausible and convincing when peers, superiors or others are present (charm can be used to deceive as well as to cover for lack of empathy)
    • is glib, shallow and superficial with plenty of fine words and lots of form - but there's no substance
    • is possessed of an exceptional verbal facility and will outmanoeuvre most people in verbal interaction, especially at times of conflict
    • is often described as smooth, slippery, slimy, ingratiating, fawning, toadying, obsequious, sycophantic
    • relies on mimicry, repetition and regurgitation to convince others that he or she is both a "normal" human being and a tough dynamic manager, as in extolling the virtues of the latest management fads and pouring forth the accompanying jargon
    • is unusually skilled in being able to anticipate what people want to hear and then saying it plausibly
    • cannot be trusted or relied upon
    • fails to fulfil commitments
    • is emotionally retarded with an arrested level of emotional development; whilst language and intellect may appear to be that of an adult, the bully displays the emotional age of a five-year-old
    • is emotionally immature and emotionally untrustworthy
    • exhibits unusual and inappropriate attitudes to sexual matters, sexual behaviour and bodily functions; underneath the charming exterior there are often suspicions or hints of sex discrimination and sexual harassment, perhaps also sexual dysfunction, sexual inadequacy, sexual perversion, sexual violence or sexual abuse
    • in a relationship, is incapable of initiating or sustaining intimacy
    • holds deep prejudices (eg against the opposite gender, people of a different sexual orientation, other cultures and religious beliefs, foreigners, etc - prejudiced people are unvaryingly unimaginative) but goes to great lengths to keep this prejudicial aspect of their personality secret
    • is self-opinionated and displays arrogance, audacity, a superior sense of entitlement and sense of invulnerability and untouchability
    • has a deep-seated contempt of clients in contrast to his or her professed compassion
    • is a control freak and has a compulsive need to control everyone and everything you say, do, think and believe; for example, will launch an immediate personal attack attempting to restrict what you are permitted to say if you start talking knowledgeably about psychopathic personality or antisocial personality disorder in their presence - but aggressively maintains the right to talk (usually unknowledgeably) about anything they choose; serial bullies despise anyone who enables others to see through their deception and their mask of sanity
    • displays a compulsive need to criticise whilst simultaneously refusing to value, praise and acknowledge others, their achievements, or their existence
    • shows a lack of joined-up thinking with conversation that doesn't flow and arguments that don't hold water
    • flits from topic to topic so that you come away feeling you've never had a proper conversation
    • refuses to be specific and never gives a straight answer
    • is evasive and has a Houdini-like ability to escape accountability
    • undermines and destroys anyone who the bully perceives to be an adversary, a potential threat, or who can see through the bully's mask
    • is adept at creating conflict between those who would otherwise collate incriminating information about them
    • is quick to discredit and neutralise anyone who can talk knowledgeably about antisocial or sociopathic behaviors
    • may pursue a vindictive vendetta against anyone who dares to held them accountable, perhaps using others' resources and contemptuous of the damage caused to other people and organisations in pursuance of the vendetta
    • is also quick to belittle, undermine, denigrate and discredit anyone who calls, attempts to call, or might call the bully to account
    • gains gratification from denying people what they are entitled to
    • is highly manipulative, especially of people's perceptions and emotions (eg guilt)
    • poisons peoples' minds by manipulating their perceptions
    • when called upon to share or address the needs and concerns of others, responds with impatience, irritability and aggression
    • is arrogant, haughty, high-handed, and a know-all
    • often has an overwhelming, unhealthy and narcissistic attention-seeking need to portray themselves as a wonderful, kind, caring and compassionate person, in contrast to their behaviour and treatment of others; the bully sees nothing wrong with their behavior and chooses to remain oblivious to the discrepancy between how they like to be seen and how they are seen by others
    • is spiritually dead although may loudly profess some religious belief or affiliation
    • is mean-spirited, officious, and often unbelievably petty
    • is mean, stingy, and financially untrustworthy
    • is greedy, selfish, a parasite and an emotional vampire
    • is always a taker and never a giver
    • is convinced of their superiority and has an overbearing belief in their qualities of leadership but cannot distinguish between leadership (maturity, decisiveness, assertiveness, co-operation, trust, integrity) and bullying (immaturity, impulsiveness, aggression, manipulation, distrust, deceitfulness)
    • often fraudulently claims qualifications, experience, titles, entitlements or affiliations which are ambiguous, misleading, or bogus
    • often misses the semantic meaning of language, misinterprets what is said, sometimes wrongly thinking that comments of a satirical, ironic or general negative nature apply to him or herself
    • knows the words but not the song
    • is constantly imposing on others a false reality made up of distortion and fabrication
    • sometimes displays a seemingly limitless demonic energy especially when engaged in attention-seeking activities or evasion of accountability and is often a committeeaholic or apparent workaholic
    Responsibility
    The serial bully appears to lack insight into his or her behaviour and seems to be oblivious to the crassness and inappropriateness thereof; however, it is more likely that the bully knows what they are doing but elects to switch off the moral and ethical considerations by which normal people are bound. If the bully knows what they are doing, they are responsible for their behaviour and thus liable for its consequences to other people. If the bully doesn't know what they are doing, they should be suspended from duty on the grounds of diminished responsibility and the provisions of the Mental Health Act should apply.
    http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

    Treatment for narcissism is available http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36t.htm but recovery is not guaranteed.

    Always think carefully before entering a business or investment partnership. I have heard that the legal cost of exiting down the track can be very painful.

    Food for thought, happy investing

    David

  • #2
    The countdown to moderation begins.

    5,4,3,2...

    Comment


    • #3
      We'll have to leave you all in wet nappies if you don't start behaving nicely. Then when you've all got rashes we'll give you all a darn good spanking.

      Comment


      • #4
        And we have Helen Clark as a Prime Minister.
        "There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says 'yes,' you know he is a crook." Groucho Marx

        Comment


        • #5
          Not to mention Winnie :-)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SuperDad View Post
            The countdown to moderation begins.

            5,4,3,2...
            Sorry Paul, I don't understand.

            Did you want to report the above post?

            If so, which of the forum rules do you think it breaks?

            Thanks

            cube
            DFTBA

            Comment


            • #7
              Davis,

              one of the most childish responses to airing comments about unresolved issues is to call them childish. What a 12 year old girl has to do with being childish only a parent would assume.

              It does however avail the caller to the privilege of not taking the moment to determine a balanced view of the two opposing opinions that are being aired.

              I am disappointed that you feel you needed to cancel any business relationship with PropertyTalk as that might be a judgement made for an incorrect reason.

              A War of words is a tragedy of a game, especially when you do not realise the consequences those word inflict on all of the readers of the written words, most likely what the detractors of the outstanding issue are pointing to.

              I hear what you are saying and have made a mental note, there is more to this then meets the eye and I can assure you all information will be resolved in teh end.

              Keep your chin up I hope you can evolve from this in a more enlightened way.

              Regards,

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Ivi

                Two points

                1. Who is Davis?

                2. You obviously do not have a 12 year old daughter.

                Regards
                "There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says 'yes,' you know he is a crook." Groucho Marx

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cube View Post
                  Sorry Paul, I don't understand.

                  Did you want to report the above post?

                  If so, which of the forum rules do you think it breaks?

                  Thanks

                  cube
                  Indeed? The first part is simply good sound business advice, know someone well before you get into bed with them, financially or otherwise

                  The second part, while vaguely irrelevant, might be interesting to some people. In any case irrelevance isn't a reason for moderation, otherwise half of my posts would be cut.

                  David
                  New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I thought this might be moderated because it is an exact (or near exact) copy of a posting made earlier today, which was removed for moderation.

                    But no, I don't think that it should be removed, for the reasons David gives.

                    Paul.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      David makes a good point about business arrangements/ partnerships. Often when we start out it is an option.
                      However the potential for things to go bad can tarnish any relationship you previously had.
                      That is why I prefer not to do business with friends and family.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by muppet View Post
                        Hi Ivi

                        Two points

                        1. Who is Davis?

                        2. You obviously do not have a 12 year old daughter.

                        Regards
                        Hey there muppet,

                        I meant DAVID,

                        No not 12 year old daughter maybe a twelve year old daughter, but that is another assumable proposition.

                        I do know how it should be written!!

                        Sincerely,

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Okay a toe into the water, there are some issues in this thread but something positive could come out of it.

                          The concept of finding / dealing with business partners. My experiences have been a little different, but for the most part have worked well.

                          The partner in my consulting company, was attending a seminar I was giving to a group of accountants, liked the content and offered me a partnership, three years down the track we still operate on a handshake and have had no issues. We disagree on strategy some times, but it is always a suck and see approach.

                          In my finance company the business has grown 10 times in the last two years and we are starting to have some marriage issues, I was introduced to this business as a pure investor but have again worked a lot of it on a handshake, whilst the lawyers are not going to be called in just yet there is going to be a little space so that heads can cool. In this situation, I have overestimated the skill of the managers running a larger business and they are having ego issues about bringing someone in at the top of the tree.

                          The property side is done with a friend, and basically everything in it is done strictly to agreement, there have been a couple of disputes and the mediators, whilst expensive have proved invaluable.

                          On the personal side my partner and I have very different views on investing, whilst we have a couple of shared investments these are agreed by me simply giving in and saving myself a bashing.

                          Each business is a stand-alone consideration and a lot of it is based on trust and personality. My personal preference is to get on the sauce with a potential business partner, people generally give a lot away with a couple under their belts. Reading the personalities is always a challenging trait, where in the consulting company we are frank with our observations, in the finance company there is a princess complex which means that feelings are easily hurt and in the property it is always a disagreement about risk tolerance.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            In my continued studies of "how to profile and select the perfect business or investment partner", this narcississm thing has fascinated me somewhat.

                            Apparently Elvis Presley, Ted Bundy, Michael Moore (US), Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson are all thought to be narcissists. Like PT for Property the online support networks online for victims are amazing now:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...buse/messages/


                            For anyone with suspicions wanting to assess a current potential narssistic relationship, I have found this checklist excellent:


                            The Narcissistic Vampire Checklist
                            "The smartest, most talented, all-around best person in the world test:"
                            True or false? Score one point for each true answer.
                            1. This person has achieved more than most people his or her age.
                            2. This person is firmly convinced that he or she is better, smarter, or more talented than other people.
                            3. This person loves competition, but is a poor loser.
                            4. This person has fantasies of doing something great or being famous, and often expects to be treated as if these fantasies had already come true.
                            5. This person has very little interest in what other people are thinking or feeling, unless he or she wants something from them.
                            6. This person is a name dropper.
                            7. To this person it is very important to live in the right place and associate with the right people.
                            8. This person takes advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals.
                            9. This person usually manages to be in a category by him or herself.
                            10. This person often feels put upon when asked to take care of his or her responsibilities to family, friends, or work group.
                            11. This person regularly disregards rules or expects them to be changed because he or she is in some way special.
                            12. This person becomes irritated when other people don't automatically do what he or she wants them to do, even when they have a good reason for not complying.
                            13. This person reviews sports, art, and literature by telling you what he or she would have done instead.
                            14. This person thinks most criticisms of him or her are motivated by jealousy.
                            15. This person regards anything short of worship to be rejection.
                            16. This person suffers from a congenital inability to recognize his or her own mistakes. On the rare occasions that this person does recognize a mistake, even the slightest error can precipitate a major depression.
                            17. This person often explains why people who are better known than he or she is not really all that great.
                            18. This person often complains of being mistreated or misunderstood.
                            19. People either love or hate this person.
                            20. Despite this person's overly high opinion of him or herself, he or she is really quite intelligent and talented.

                            Scoring: five or more true answers qualifies the person as a narcissistic emotional vampire, though not necessarily for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality. If the person scores higher than ten, and is not a member of the royal family, be careful that you aren't mistaken for one of the servants.
                            By ALBERT J. BERNSTEIN, Ph.D.

                            Question:
                            Are Narcissists addicted to being famous?

                            Answer:
                            You bet. This, by far, is their predominant drive. Being famous encompasses a few important functions: it endows the narcissist with power, provides him with a constant Source of Narcissistic Supply (admiration, adoration, approval, awe), and fulfils important Ego functions.

                            The image that the narcissist projects is hurled back at him, reflected by those exposed to his celebrity or fame. This way he feels alive, his very existence is affirmed and he acquires a sensation of clear boundaries (where the narcissist ends and the world begins).

                            There is a set of narcissistic behaviours typical to the pursuit of celebrity. There is almost nothing that the narcissist refrains from doing, almost no borders that he hesitates to cross to achieve renown. To him, there is no such thing as "bad publicity" – what matters is to be in the public eye.

                            Because the narcissist equally enjoys all types of attention and likes as much to be feared as to be loved, for instance – he doesn't mind if what is published about him is wrong ("as long as they spell my name correctly"). The narcissist's only bad emotional stretches are during periods of lack of attention, publicity, or exposure.

                            The narcissist then feels empty, hollowed out, negligible, humiliated, wrathful, discriminated against, deprived, neglected, treated unjustly and so on. At first, he tries to obtain attention from ever narrowing groups of reference ("supply scale down"). But the feeling that he is compromising gnaws at his anyhow fragile self-esteem.

                            Sooner or later, the spring bursts. The narcissist plots, contrives, plans, conspires, thinks, analyses, synthesises and does whatever else is necessary to regain the lost exposure in the public eye. The more he fails to secure the attention of the target group (always the largest) – the more daring, eccentric and outlandish he becomes. Firm decision to become known is transformed into resolute action and then to a panicky pattern of attention seeking behaviours.

                            The narcissist is not really interested in publicity per se. Narcissists are misleading. The narcissist appears to love himself – and, really, he abhors himself. Similarly, he appears to be interested in becoming a celebrity – and, in reality, he is concerned with the REACTIONS to his fame: people watch him, notice him, talk about him, debate his actions – therefore he exists.

                            The narcissist goes around "hunting and collecting" the way the expressions on people's faces change when they notice him. He places himself at the centre of attention, or even as a figure of controversy. He constantly and recurrently pesters those nearest and dearest to him in a bid to reassure himself that he is not losing his fame, his magic touch, the attention of his social milieu.

                            Truly, the narcissist is not choosy. If he can become famous as a writer – he writes, if as a businessman – he conducts business. He switches from one field to the other with ease and without remorse because in all of them he is present without conviction, bar the conviction that he must (and deserves to) get famous.
                            He grades activities, hobbies and people not according to the pleasure that they give him – but according to their utility: can they or can't they make him known and, if so, to what extent. The narcissist is one-track minded (not to say obsessive). His is a world of black (being unknown and deprived of attention) and white (being famous and celebrated).

                            If you are looking for a business or investment partner, do your research before you put ink on paper. I am off to continue my research...

                            David

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Muffin View Post
                              My personal preference is to get on the sauce with a potential business partner, people generally give a lot away with a couple under their belts.
                              Yes indeed - nothing like a few jars to break down barriers..

                              Comment

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