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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2005


    Elena, how come you had to increase the price and give vendor better terms then?

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    auckland New Zealand


    Not wanting to hijack this thread but as Ivanhoe has just posted you all should go and see his new website http://www.whyrent.co.nz/ It's very cool and even has a pic of Ivan and his lovely wife Renata!!

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2005


    Ivanhoe, well done! Fantastic web site!

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2005


    oh, c'mon, Dean!
    Now I'll have to do acknowledgements, break champane bottles etc...
    OK, here we go:
    Design, hosting and technical support Grant "Cliffy" Clifton.
    Editor-in-chief: Dean "Poomba" Letfus
    Renata - seniour negotiator and dinner provider (for Editor-in-chief)
    Junior writer and leverage coordinator- Ivanhoe

    Thread belongs to Oopsik! Elena, i'm terribly sorry for hi-jacking!
    Last edited by Ivanhoe; 19-08-2006 at 11:38 PM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2005


    Quote Originally Posted by Oopsick View Post

    Xris, the offer was accepted but was not unconditional at the point of 2nd investor being introduced to the deal.
    Hello oopsick,

    Apologies for getting slightly wrong.

    But I am, like ivanhoe, a bit puzzled. Your first offer was then not an unconditional one when it became a contract. But, whatever, was there a clause on it that enabled the vendor to pull out prior to your confirmation? If so I still think it unwise to advertise that fact to buyer 2. Your agent 1, if she had let agent 2 know that fact then she was only doing her job for her client - getting the vendor the best price she could. Her huffing and puffing about losing half the commission to agent 2 was probably due to buyer 2 choosing to use agent 2 instead of her, agent 1.

    If this further assumption of mine is correct, it still holds that you should not have discussed the contract with anyone, or you should perhaps have been more cautious about signing a contract with such an easy get-out for the vendor. This though may have been the only option open to you.

    Last edited by xris; 19-08-2006 at 11:57 PM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2006


    Hi Elana,

    I just wanted to provide a contrary opinion to that expressed by xris. I still think that the other party has acted unethically.

    Quote Originally Posted by xris
    Don’t forget, all is fair in love and war and real estate.

    No, its not. Treating the ones one loves with disrespect is unethical. If all were fair in war, then it would make no sense to distinguish between justified and unjustified acts in war. (Bombing military installations is just; bombing a school full of children is unjust.) And so we come to real estate. It is not the case that anything goes in RE. RE as an activity does not stand outside of our normal sphere of moral consideration, but falls firmly within it. People are people, whether they are our friends, or people we are conducting business with. People ought to treat others well. The fact that people don't is an indictment on the people concerned. It doesn't mean that anything goes, it just means that there are people who are prepared to act unethically in order to further their own financial position.

    Quote Originally Posted by xris
    The buyer 2 was merely doing smart business taking advantage of your inexperience. I, and many others, would have done the same thing.

    The person may have been doing "smart business", but the original question was whether they acted unethically. These are two different things. Sure, some "socially responsible" businesses now believe that they can increase their profits by acting ethically in the marketplace. But note that their motivation for acting ethically is not because it is the right thing to do, but rather because it will increase profits. Some RE-related businesses encourage the kind of activity described by Elana. RM's "sixth D" - dummies - tells us that bargains can be found by exploiting dummies. Elana in this case was the dummy. Sure, Elana may have revealed more information than was fiscally prudent. But she didn't deserve to be shafted by someone out to make a buck.

    Once bitten, twice shy.


  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    North Waikato



    I don't normally buy through a finder but I remember I had to sign a form once when I inquired on a property re not using the information about to be given, before I received any information, including the address.

    If you are seriously looking into creating a property finding business, it sounds like a wise precaution. At least then you have recourse through the courts (or more importantly the threat of legal action) as it probably won't be worth the expense of pursuing it.

    Whether its worth the extra step in your systems to do this probably depends on your future volume and where you want to focus your attention.


  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2005


    HI Elana,
    I just thought I would step in here too as when I first started finding properties to assign I would put conditional offers on, (never had to up my offer though that part puzzles me) and a couple of times (only twice) I had backups put on behind me, which ment I couldnt ask for an extension and if I hadnt sold the property I had to go unconditional myself, or let if go which in one of the cases I did as I didnt want it. Now i might just clarify here, I had backups put on more than twice but twice that I know of were through the unethical people (and yes I beleive it is unethical,) who had been introduced to the deal through me and in once case through another property finder where we had decided to split the profit,

    In my case after those affairs, both very close together, I decided to only buy properties which make sense for me to keep if I dont assign them, so now nearly all the time I go in cash unconditional so it is my house if I dont assign it, to me this is one of my guarantees to my investors that I feel it is good enough for me to keep if I dont sell it. NOw I am not suggesting you do that as you can get more deals if you just try for everything. But sadly there are a few people out there who will go on with a back up, now if you dont sell it and it becomes available again then there are others who will step in then and buy it. I guess we are always going to get people who work like this, but one thing I pride myself in is my own ethics, and I really beleive people who work like this and buy houses finders dont manage to assign are never going to be truly successful.

    I possibly could be interested in your house too so if you would like to pm me the details about it I will look at it. Just going to be away a bit in the next couple of months so might not work if it falls at a difficult time but you never know.
    HOpe that person is not on my database, not that I have a big problem with backups now as I normally have an unconditional contract I am assigning.

    YOu do have to be careful as I remember a newbie posting about a deal on this forum he was thinking of taking and next thing I saw it on someone elses list THIS TO ME IS UNETHICAL but you get that and i guess it is just business but I still felt sorry for the newbie, I hope that person didnt manage to assign it, but i am sure they did it was a good deal.

    anyway enough from me, best of luck with your future deals.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2005


    JohnL, thank you for the advice. That was exactly what I started to think about - some kind of a legal paper to protect me from such things happening again.

    I agree I was not cautious enough. This property was my 1st double settlement deal and of course I was too naive giving my knowledge and paperwork away without protection.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2003


    Hi Elena,

    Welcome to the real ugly side of the property investment industry... It is sad but true that there is always someone who will try and cheat your system to try and save a few lousy $ for themselves whilst trying to use your hard work, time and research for free!!!
    Simply put they are thieves because they steal your time (in fact it's much worse than that because they steal your life, think about it, time is irreplaceable!).

    The situation you describe is commonly referred to as being "back-doored" (i.e. you showed them through the front door but they, tried to do the deal or, did the deal via the back door ie without you but using the hard work you have already done and handed to them on a plate!).

    I am aware that this has also happened in my property sourcing business and I have had other situations of unethical behaviour too (like the cheeky guy I caught trying to photograph my minor dwelling floor plans with his mobile phone camera!!! There are many other examples I have experienced in my businesses too but I'd rather not discuss them publicly).

    I put it down to the fact these people truly do have a scarcity mentality and they are sometimes the same people who are do-it-yourselfers (ie think they are smart enough to be experts at everything by copying others) and insist on getting a discount on anything they buy (not just property).

    I refer to them as being so busy counting the cents that they miss out on the dollars...

    They miss out on the dollars because they will be so busy trying to screw every cent out of a deal that sooner or later they will copy someone who is not an expert (but perhaps portrays themself to be) and they will end up actually outsmarting themselves and making costly mistakes (often without even realising it until it's too late). I think it's karma - These people are a magnet for other unethical people and will end up getting treated unethically too!!!

    Fortunately I can say that in my experience the large majority of people in the property investment industry do not operate unethically and are happy to see you get what you do deserve. The others will always be there but you do get to know who they are pretty quickly (even if it is sometimes at a cost to you). That's just business to a degree, I'm afraid.

    P.S. I would love you to PM me with this persons name... I would not be at all surprised if I already know who they are!
    Kieran Trass


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