Builder's pay

[GML]

I'm doing a renovation lasting some months. The builder and his apprentice are paid hourly. Is it standard to include their breaks during the day (when they will leave the property at times)? ie if they work 7am to 5pm do I pay them for the full 10hrs? Thanks

[donna]

Hi GML,

I pay for the hours worked but it's not always that easy to ascertain the exact hours unless you're onsite all the time. You could get them to present their timesheets with the invoice. I haven't done it but there's no reason why you wouldn't if it offers peace of mind.

The other issue is 'project management' is the builder managing the other contractors e.g. plumber etc? Ordering of materials etc what's the fee for that?

So there's time and materials - do you source the 'materials' or do they? Do you source the Kitchenware, floorings etc or do they? If they do, how do you know you're getting the best deal etc - there's lots of challenges as they too have relationships but I've found out the 'boys network' doesn't equate to best value for money.

We're going through what started out as a renovation and then became a rebuild so costs escalated and we pay 15% management fee which is applied to everything so where we can we're price checking materials/products and going direct if it makes sense to do so - i.e. it's cheaper.

cheers,

Donna

[motivated]

I'm doing a renovation lasting some months. The builder and his apprentice are paid hourly. Is it standard to include their breaks during the day (when they will leave the property at times)? ie if they work 7am to 5pm do I pay them for the full 10hrs? Thanks

It is accepted practice that the lunch break is not paid but that a short 10 or 15 min morning/afternoon tea break/smoko break are part of the paid time

[sidinz]

It is accepted practice that the lunch break is not paid but that a short 10 or 15 min morning/afternoon tea break/smoko break are part of the paid time

Pretty standard across all industries, I would have thought.

[Rosco]

It is accepted practice that the lunch break is not paid but that a short 10 or 15 min morning/afternoon tea break/smoko break are part of the paid time

Accepted Practice by who?

If you are employing someone, then yes you have to pay sick, holidays, morning tea, afternoon etc etc.

But if you are engaging a business, then generally you either pay the quote, standard price or their hourly rate - the hourly rate is for work! not for anything else. Anything else like how many breaks they have, when exactly they start, how much time they fluff about at their depot, that is the business issue and problem, and why the business charge you a higher rate to cover any downtime.

In my opinion you should only be charged for the time working. Morning Tea and Afternoon Tea are a business cost, not yours.

Ross

[GML]

Thanks everyone.
I agree with Rosco, he's not my employee, he's contracted on an hourly rate, and that hourly rate should factor in the costs of running his business, including break times. Now to explain that to him...

[donna]

I don't agree with Ross - I think you need to be flexible and focus on getting the best builder for what you can afford and I doubt you'll find one that won't expect their 10 min morning and afternoon teas break on the clock.


cheers,

Donna

[Rosco]

I'm not saying being cheap, and I agree with paying well. Just for hourly rates, you pay for work done, not for someones breaks.

How would you feel if you paid your lawyer $500 per hour for their morning tea?

Or accountant?

Or Dentist - you are sitting in the chair. And they go off and have morning tea and charge you for it

Ross

[donna]

Hi Ross,

I agree with you However in practice I've found it impossible to manage (the moving target of hours worked) and believe I'd need to be on site all the time - which for me it's not worth it - $$ wise.

Also I know I could catch them out too, and it was winding me up but I quickly worked out it wasn't worth going into battle over it when there are so many more battles to fight i.e. stuff you query and want remedied during the build, so my change of focus has improved my relationship with the builders and the workmanship is excellent which is more important to me - particularly as it's our own abode.

In another time i.e. lots of supply of builders wanting your work, I reckon I could crack the whip and get a great result but right now when there's a shortage of good builders, it's a risky strategy, but this is my current experience - it's not a one size fits all.

cheers,

Donna

[Don't believe the Hype]

I'm not saying being cheap, and I agree with paying well. Just for hourly rates, you pay for work done, not for someones breaks.

How would you feel if you paid your lawyer $500 per hour for their morning tea?

Or accountant?

Or Dentist - you are sitting in the chair. And they go off and have morning tea and charge you for it

Ross

That's a great question Rosco...

I've had accountant charge me for the time they're learning about a tricky issue at their hourly rate. Is this something you'd do / normal practice? I found it very strange.



In relation to paying for a 10-15min smoko - you'd spend more time trying to account for their breaks and in reality you'd never know if they added 5 min to the start of the day and 5 mins to the end and said they came back from lunch 5 min before they really did.

Tracking a tradie's time sheets is near impossible especially when you have a dozen guys on site. You need to have a good relationship with your guys so that you're not getting shafted and you need to track it and call them out if they start taking the p1ss but if your project is that tight that a 15 min overrun on labour over 8hrs (3.25%) your project is probably not sound and you should reconsider.

[GML]

Thanks for everyone's comments.

They don't take short breaks, but two 30min meal breaks - one every 3 hours of work (so one at 10am (which they leave the property for initially), and one at 1.30pm.
I do believe I'm paying my builder at a premium rate - $70/h, and I pay him $45/h for his apprentice. [and 10% on materials, 5% on subbies]
So for a 4 week period their meal breaks alone are costing me $2645 - not insignificant!
I did have him give me a contract at the start (which he pulled off the internet) which doesn't mention meal breaks, but does state hourly rate "for labour". Of course this includes time spent reviewing the plans, calculating quantities and phone calls which is I accept is part of the job, I just wanted to check what the norm was about the breakfast and lunch breaks.

[John the builder]

you need to have this conversation before accepting the contract especially on charge up contracts.
you should pay for one break but not the official lunch break.....industry standards apply if not stated.

It gets very unsettling when the owner starts putting the stop watch on you. It poisons the relationship. There has to be trust in these arrangements with the good productivity averaging the bad (we hope). Get some accountability with a budget control process.

I had a builder who would spend Friday pm doing his weekly invoice and I realised we were paying him to do it on his hourly rate. (and he was getting % as well). When i asked for more information and a final account summary on charges we got billed for that too :-(


Rosco
regards the lawyer how would you know you weren't paying him for his break if they don't provide the detailed invoices??

time sheets with what was being done at the time are minimum??

[jimO]

no matter what you get charged by your builder for a days work its a fraction of what your laywyer or accountant will charge you for a days work, anyway those ford rangers dont buy themselves you know

[DaveW]

I'm doing a renovation lasting some months. The builder and his apprentice are paid hourly. Is it standard to include their breaks during the day (when they will leave the property at times)? ie if they work 7am to 5pm do I pay them for the full 10hrs? Thanks

For a job that lasts for months I wouldn't go for the hourly contract. Better to get quotes for the whole job. Small jobs hourly is ok, but big jobs like this can lead to going over budget and over time pretty easily.

[John the builder]

quote means you are asking builder to take risk which he must cover in price.