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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Hastings
    Posts
    14,876

    Default Lies, Damned Lies & BS Ministerial Statistics



    Once you've read what follows, you and every other property investor will know for sure that the certain way to tell if a politician is lying is that their lips are moving.

    Dhil Twitford must hate Mike Butler's guts. Or worse.


    Rental property child hospitalisation claim contradicted

    Housing Minister Phil Twyford justified the launch of costly new rental property standards in February by saying "6000 children are admitted each year for 'housing-sensitive hospitalisations' " but, when questioned, two Ministries provided contradictory data that undermined the Minister's claim.

    Tenancies War spokesman Mike Butler sent a series of questions to the Minister's office, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, and the Ministry of Health, all seeking evidence to support that rather specific claim made by the Minister.

    The full quote was that "6000 children are admitted each year for 'housing-sensitive hospitalisations,' and that these children have been found to be nearly four times more likely to be re-hospitalised and 10 times more likely to die in the following 10 years."

    Answers to questions asked under the Official Information Act revealed that:

    * The Ministry of Health does not list "housing-related hospitalisation" as a condition that people are hospitalised for, but does list it as "circumstances that may cause diseases (or exacerbate existing conditions)."

    * The category in a table on page 2 titled Publicly funded hospital discharges 2015/16, showed that of the 244,152 discharges of children and young persons to age 19 that year, there was one single entry recording a hospitalisation for a condition exacerbated by housing.

    * MBIE said that the claim that "6000 children are admitted each year for 'housing-sensitive hospitalisations,' and that these children have been found to be nearly four times more likely to be re-hospitalised and 10 times more likely to die in the following 10 years" appears as an assertion on page 41 of A Stocktake on New Zealand Housing*, published last year. That assertion was made with no supporting data other than a footnote.

    * The footnote, titled Risk of Rehospitalisation and death for vulnerable New Zealand children, identified crowding as the housing factor and said that death was rare.

    In Stocktake*, there was another assertion about children and asthma on p43, and diseases resulting from crowding in p44, again without supporting data other than unhelpful footnotes. If that was the only support for the Minister's claim, it would appear that his "we are doing it for the children" utterances were exaggerated.

    The Minister has made various "hospitalisation" claims while pushing for so-called "healthy homes guarantee standards."

    During the first reading of the Healthy Homes Guarantee Bill on May 4, 2016, Mr Twyford said: "It is no longer good enough in this country of ours that there are 42,000 - in fact, the latest figures indicate 50,000 - preventable hospitalisations of children with respiratory and infectious diseases."

    The foreword of the Healthy Homes Standards discussion document, signed by the Minister, says that Ministry of Health data ( 2018 ) shows that there are "approximately 10,800 children or 13,000 events with potentially housing related conditions presented to the hospitals in New Zealand each year."

    The Healthy Homes Guarantee Act was passed in 2017. Standards had not been created when MPs considered the legislation. The standards would be created later, outside of parliamentary scrutiny, and were to be imposed as a regulation.

    The standards which eventuated concerned heating, insulation, ventilation, moisture control and drafts, presumably to combat what the Minister thought was a prevalence of cold, damp housing.

    These standards, of course, would have no effect on hospitalisations resulting from disease-transmission in crowded houses, respiratory diseases resulting from indoor smoking and unflued portable gas heaters, or infections resulting from poor hygiene.

    This means that a fully compliant but crowded dwelling would continue to drive high rates of close-contact infectious diseases such as pneumonia, meningococcal disease and tuberculosis.

    Insulation top-ups merely ensure that the costs of heating are marginally reduced and a fixed heater does not ensure that it is used. Extractor fans (which do not turn themselves on) would remove some steam from kitchens and bathroom, something which could be achieved by opening a window.

    The news that data from one Ministry contradicted data from another Ministry and undermined the Minister's emotional “for the children” claim, and that the rental property standards would have no effect on crowding-related diseases, will go down like a cup of cold sick for rental property owners forced to spend up to $7000 per dwelling on largely unnecessary modifications.

    * Authors: Alan Johnson, Professor Philippa Howden-Chapman, Shamubeel Eaqub. Download your pdf copy, here.

    Stop the War on Tenancies is a group that - since last October - has been highlighting the evidence that successive governments have ignored while creating problematic rental property policy.

    Contact:
    Mike Butler 27-277 7295
    [email protected]
    Last edited by Perry; 22-04-2019 at 04:07 PM. Reason: fixed typo
    Want a great looking concrete swimming pool in Hawke's Bay? Designer Pools will do the job for you!

  2. #102
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,794

    Default

    Crowding a factor. Colour me surprised, especially as some of the research supporting this is from Professor Howden-Chapman herself.

    Crowding is also a factor in damp and mould, which might have some relationship with sick children. I would encourage landlords to note any mould at all in their inspections and require it to be cleaned asap, unless caused by structural issues.

    It is possible that landlords are preferring tenants with no or few children, and there just might be a correlation with state house waiting lists doubling under this government, and with funding for emergency motel occupancy rising.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,581

    Default

    Have you seen this?
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...making-sick-v1

    Every year, 1600 New Zealanders die from conditions caused by cold, damp homes and Ms Te Rangi says that the recommended temperatures differ according to age, which is why a sensor will become most beneficial.
    I presume the 1600 deaths are caused by the landlords?
    Those bastards!

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Hastings
    Posts
    14,876

    Default

    Wouldn't it be good to know more about the actual home?
    This comes after Ms Te Rangi lost her grandmother to damp housing conditions igniting her to fight for change.
    Want a great looking concrete swimming pool in Hawke's Bay? Designer Pools will do the job for you!

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Rotorua
    Posts
    476

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    Wouldn't it be good to know more about the actual home?
    95% it was HNZ house but mentioning this is not "politically" correct

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    1,672

    Default

    There was a speaker at the RPIA meeting and I asked about the 18deg rule in living areas, and whether that meant that in large, open plan spaces, the far corner of the kitchen needed to get up to those temps and the answer was 'yes'.
    This leads to the situation where the burden on LLs owning this kind of property is higher than that of LL with separate kitchen/dining/lounges.
    My blog. From personal experience.
    http://statehousinginnz.wordpress.com/

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Hastings
    Posts
    14,876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sidinz View Post
    This leads to the situation where the burden on LLs owning this kind of property is higher than that of LL with separate kitchen/dining/lounges.
    Providing the appliance - yes. But paying for the energy required is the tenant's responsibility, is it not?
    Want a great looking concrete swimming pool in Hawke's Bay? Designer Pools will do the job for you!

  8. #108

    Default

    Getting the right heater that will do the job falls on the landlord. Having it on long enough to heat the area, in my case open plan with a staircase to the upper level, is the tenants. Oh well, there needs the installation of a heavy curtain to stop the heat rising to the bedrooms. The heating of that area is not yet regulated, not my problem. Thank goodness it is all double glazed and get the sun all day.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,794

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sidinz View Post
    There was a speaker at the RPIA meeting and I asked about the 18deg rule in living areas, and whether that meant that in large, open plan spaces, the far corner of the kitchen needed to get up to those temps and the answer was 'yes'.
    This leads to the situation where the burden on LLs owning this kind of property is higher than that of LL with separate kitchen/dining/lounges.
    This leads to the situation where even more landlords decide the game is not worth the candle.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoook View Post
    Getting the right heater that will do the job falls on the landlord. Having it on long enough to heat the area, in my case open plan with a staircase to the upper level, is the tenants. Oh well, there needs the installation of a heavy curtain to stop the heat rising to the bedrooms. The heating of that area is not yet regulated, not my problem. Thank goodness it is all double glazed and get the sun all day.
    Hi
    The way I understand it the fact that your house is already warm due to all alll sun and double glazing will not be taken into account.

    They talked about an "app" that just takes the room volume and calculates what size heater will be needed.

    Does the "app" have a starting temperature that you can fill in...who knows...time will tell.

    When I asked my tenants if they wanted a heatpump they said no and if I put one in they would never use it.

    If I end up putting one in I will just tell them to write to their Labour MP and tell him.

    Thanks
    Richard


 

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