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Has anyone witnessed firsthand a property price bubble? What does it look like?

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  • #61
    Out of Las Vegas

    How tales of property ‘flippers’ led to a housing bubble


    By Robert J. Shiller, New York Times News Service
    Tuesday, May 30, 2017 | 2 a.m.
    Minh Uong / The New York Times
    The boom and bust cycle in the housing market had terrible consequences. Yet unless we fully understand its causes, we may end up repeating it.

    There is still no consensus on why the last housing boom and bust happened. That is troubling, because that violent housing cycle helped to produce the Great Recession and financial crisis of 2007-2009. We need to understand it all if we are going to be able to avoid ordeals like that in the future.

    But the explanations for what happened in housing are not, I think, to be found in the conventional data favored by economists but rather in sociologically important narratives — like tales of getting rich through “flipping” houses and shares of initial public offerings — that constitute the shifting mentality of the era.

    Consider the data for a moment. It shows us that extreme changes took place but doesn’t tell us why.

    Real home prices rose 75 percent from February 1997 to December 2005, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller National Home Price Index, corrected for inflation by the Consumer Price Index. And then, from 2005-2012, real prices reversed course, falling to just 12 percent above their 1997 level. In the years since 2012, they have climbed 29 percent, about halfway back to their 2005 peak. This is a roller coaster in national home prices — it has been even scarier in some more volatile cities — yet we have no clarity on why it happened.

    The problem for economists is that these changes don’t correspond to movements in the usual suspects: interest rates, building costs, population or rents. The Consumer Price Index for Rent of Primary Residence, compiled by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and corrected for inflation, went up only 8 percent in 1997-2005, so unmet demand for housing services can’t explain the huge increase in real home prices. It doesn’t explain the 29 percent rise in real home prices since 2012 either, because inflation-adjusted rents increased only 10 percent in that period. So what has been driving the wild ride in home prices?

    I believe the price swings have something to do with the changing mentality of the times, changes caused by narratives that have gone viral and swept across the population. Looking for answers in such popular stories contrasts starkly with the prominent approach of modeling people as if they react logically to economic forces. But a less orthodox approach can be quite useful.

    One thing is clear: The prevalent narratives of 1997-2005 did not include the concept of a housing bubble, not at first. A computer search using ProQuest or Google Ngrams shows that the phrase “housing bubble” was hardly used until 2005, the end of the boom. What is a bubble? It typically includes the notion that, spurred by the public’s expectation of ever further price increases, demand eventually reaches levels that cannot be sustained, and so the enthusiasm wanes and the bubble collapses. But that thought was just not on many people’s minds then, the evidence suggests.

    Instead, during the 1997-2005 boom there were multitudes of narratives about smart investors who were bold enough to take a position in the market. To single out one strand, recall the stories of flippers who would buy a house, fix it up, and resell it within months at a huge profit. These stories appear to have been broadly exciting to people who didn’t flip houses themselves but who appear to have begun to think that stretching a little and buying a house with a large mortgage would make them wise investors.

    In his book “The Complete Guide to Flipping Properties,” published in 2004, Steve Berges extolled what he called “the OPM principle,” meaning “other people’s money.” He wrote, “Your objective is to control as much real estate as possible while using as little of your own capital as possible.” In other words, borrow as much as you can. He wrote about the upside of leverage but not about the perils of leverage during the kind of big price drops that were just around the corner.

    It can take a long time for narratives like this to grip the popular imagination. Flipping was “a thing” in the condominium conversion boom of the 1970s and ‘80s. The idea then was this: Big-time converters with deep pockets would buy apartment buildings and convert the rental apartments to owner-occupied condos, selling units to diverse individuals, some of them flippers. For public relations purposes, converters would offer to sell at reduced prices to renters already living in a building, and typically to some outsiders, too.

    This generated buzz. When renters and speculators flipped their purchase contracts at a big profit, sometimes using borrowed money for down payments to flip multiple units without actually even closing on the condos, it was thrilling. It seemed that anyone with energy and initiative could get rich doing this.

    Some people eager to make quick profits bought Donald Trump's well-timed 2004 book, “Trump: Think Like a Billionaire: Everything You Need to Know About Success, Real Estate, and Life,” written with Meredith McIver. Some enrolled in the less well-timed Trump University, which emphasized real estate investment in 2005, at the very end of the housing boom; it shut down, amid lawsuits and recrimination, in 2010.

    Narratives about flipping weren’t restricted to real estate. Just after the time of the condo boom, stories of rapid buying and selling of initial public offerings took off as well. As with the condo promoters, IPO underwriters would sell some shares below market prices to customers, who might then “flip” the IPO for a quick profit.

    The promoters of condo conversions and IPOs were onto something. By giving discounts to buyers who would make a high return, they captivated the nation with tales of people who had no advanced degrees or hefty résumés but made fortunes anyway.

    By now, the notion of getting rich by flipping houses is entrenched. I searched Amazon for books on “flipping houses” and came up with 328 hits, most written in the past few years. Buying and rehabbing existing houses for resale is a legitimate business. But many of these books make extravagant pitches and seem aimed at inspiring amateurs to plunge into risky ventures.

    The public fascination with speculating in housing has been held in check by regulators empowered by the 2010 Dodd-Frank Act, but that restraint is tenuous with the election as president of a real estate promoter intent on reducing regulators’ power. These narratives are still potent and could easily spur further spirals in the housing market.

    Source: https://lasvegassun.com/news/2017/ma...-a-housing-bu/
    Last edited by Chris W; 11-04-2018, 04:38 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by fuzzlevalve View Post
      Their whole thing was quite different in that regard. Demand and supply both increased more or less equally. Plus the developer favourable laws for the hotel sector produced an oversupply that was breathtaking.
      So yes they overbuilt like crazy.
      OK, thank you for clarifying your perspective - think that I understand your perspective. Perhaps this summarises the two different perspectives on future property prices in Auckland:

      1) Those that are positive on property prices (and believe that there is no property bubble) are focusing on the underlying housing supply shortage relative to the underlying demand for housing. The experiences in other property markets internationally (such as Ireland, US, Japan, etc) have different variables that impact underlying housing supply and underlying housing demand such as government policies, zoning, etc and hence do not apply to the NZ context.

      2) Whilst those who are more cautious on future property prices are focusing on the historically high property valuations, the credit cycle, the indebtedness levels of property owners and their ability to absorb an interest rate increase or debt payment increase or an unexpected shock.
      Last edited by Chris W; 12-04-2018, 02:27 PM.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Chris W View Post
        That’s why you should look at stats showing just how many speculators there are on the market. If there are a lot, don’t buy right now. Wait a couple years and you’ll see home prices drop through the floor.
        Can you show me some stats about how many speculators there are?
        I'm not sure that data is collected anywhere (does anyone tick a 'speculator box' when they buy a property?) but perhaps some assumptions are made which might be a guide to how many there are.
        How many is a ''lot''? 100? 1000?
        Is there a correlation between speculators and property crashes?
        What number of speculators will cause a property crash?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Perry View Post
          Without any precision about just what figures are involved in 'steadily rising,' then, as any sort of valid advice, the item is almost totally devoid of merit.
          If you look at the link to the source article, the main focus of the bloggers article was a checklist of questions to ask before buying a property, hence the lack of specificity on identifying property price bubbles.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Bob Kane View Post
            Can you show me some stats about how many speculators there are?
            I'm not sure that data is collected anywhere (does anyone tick a 'speculator box' when they buy a property?) but perhaps some assumptions are made which might be a guide to how many there are.
            How many is a ''lot''? 100? 1000?
            Is there a correlation between speculators and property crashes?
            What number of speculators will cause a property crash?

            Hopefully the propertytalk blogger who wrote the article has read your comment and can address your questions in their next article ...

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Perry View Post
              Without any precision about just what figures are involved in 'steadily rising,' then, as any sort of valid advice, the item is almost totally devoid of merit.

              Originally posted by Chris W View Post
              If you look at the link to the source article, the main focus of the bloggers article was a checklist of questions to ask before buying a property, hence the lack of specificity on identifying property price bubbles.
              I did not consult the source article.

              My disdain for such generalities / hung comparitives is because the price of buying property has risen steadily since whenever. There have been a few blips along the way, but prices in the aggregate have always been on the up and up. If nothing else, it's called inflation.

              In 1906, my grandfather paid $20 (ten pounds) for the section (large, close to town) and $200 (100 pounds) for a 3 bedroomed house. The house is still in the family - viz. my parents' estate. The last offer (it was declined) was for half a million dollars.

              Somewhat to my astonishment, the RBNZ inflation calculator goes back that far. But only the CPI, rather than a specific housing index. However . . .


              Half a million looks a lot better than the 'official' figure. Either way, the trend is ever-upwards. Accordingly, 'steadily rising' is totally meaningless.

              Akin to: bad weather is predicted.

              Such a forecast will be right, someday.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Chris W View Post
                Hopefully the propertytalk blogger who wrote the article has read your comment and can address your questions in their next article ...
                I doubt it.
                I couldn't see any author to that blog.
                It's just rubbish.

                Comment


                • #68
                  What is forgotten is that it actually costs $x to build a house - land, materials, labour.
                  A builder will only spend that money if he can sell that new house for $(x plus a margin).

                  If the selling price of houses drops below that level he will stop building (either because he is astute or because he goes broke).

                  Thus, in any country with a rising population (and therefore a rising demand for houses) any price drop below the $(x plus a margin) level will be temporary, as then there will be no new houses built, a developing shortage, and as we all know a shortage leads to a rise in price and we are then off and away again.

                  So any long-term decrease in house prices requires a static or declining population.

                  This is why we see low house prices in areas like Raetihi, where there are declining populations - you could not build a new house in such places and sell at a price matching existing houses, but then no-one wants to.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    So any long-term decrease in house prices requires a static or declining population.
                    Like in the US? Spain? Ireland?
                    Squadly dinky do!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      RE Ireland

                      Interesting chart of population in Ireland ... So you have rapid population growth in the few years leading up to the GFC, where population growth then slowed dramatically ... Population growth slowed in 2009 after GFC for a number of years, then started growing more rapidly again




                      Meanwhile, property prices still haven't recovered to pre-GFC levels ... Index peaked at say 130 in 2007, bottoming at 60 and have now recovered to 100. So after 11 years since the peak price in 2007, property prices are still 23% below the peak ...





                      If anyone saw how expensive property prices were during 2007 as some economists were warning at the time, they could have waited until property prices were much more affordable ...

                      I recall a story of someone who bought near the peak property price, so bought at 130, mortgage of 104 (LVR of 80%), and initial deposit equity of 26. If they managed to keep up with repayments and had an interest only loan, then the current situation would be, after 11 years of mortgage payments, property value of 100, mortgage of 104, and equity of NEGATIVE 4 (i.e negative equity). If they had just rented their accommodation, then they would now instead have cash of 26 (initial deposit on property purchase) plus 11 years of interest, rather than equity of negative 4. She wants to move to a bigger house as she now has children, but due to her negative equity position, that is difficult.

                      Just because there is population growth, it doesn't mean that property prices can't fall 50%. (The rate of population growth in Ireland was quite high leading up to the GFC as evidenced by the steepness of the population chart above). Despite rapid population growth, demand for property can fall. Population growth can give property buyers a false sense of security when there is a one in 50-100 year property price bubble.

                      You might say, well there was massive overbuilding so supply exceeded demand. I recall articles published in 2005 in the Irish press, which stated that there was no excessive number of houses relative to the population size when compared to other countries in Europe. It seemed that only in hindsight after property prices fell significantly did property market commentators say that there was excessive construction. Here is the link to those articles which captures the mood at the time where rapid population growth and new household formation (grown up children leaving home and buying a house) being drivers of future demand:

                      1) https://www.independent.ie/business/...-25982289.html
                      2) https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...inue-1.1288629

                      Due to the long lead time with construction projects, property developers build in anticipation of future demand projections. However demand can drop off much more suddenly and quickly than property projects get completed and sold. It's only when demand suddenly declines, that there is a realisation of excessive supply of housing / excessive construction. In that environment, property developers are unable to sell their constructed properties even after cutting selling prices and offering discounts, run out of cashflow as sales dry up, become financially stressed and unable to repay debt and the banks start to move in.


                      You might also say that there was a rapid increase unemployment. The rapid increase in unemployment was due to the slowing down of the economy. When economic activity slowed down, and revenues fell, businesses starting cutting salaried staff and hours for waged staff. Then there were business bankruptcies which meant permanent job losses. For those who don't know, unemployment is a lagging indicator, and changes in population lag unemployment ever further (as those who are unemployed and unable to find employment locally then decide to move to other countries in search of employment opportunities).
                      Last edited by Chris W; 14-04-2018, 10:51 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        with the hundreds of new apartments recently finished in auckland central

                        queens residences, sugartree 2 etc

                        there seems to have been no student bump in rents this year

                        and with hundreds more apartments finishing this year

                        park residences, queens square, sugartree 3 etc

                        rents are unlikely to rise in the near term

                        and of course there are more coming the year after

                        connect, library17, antipodean etc

                        can the new gov keep adding high paying jobs to the local economy?

                        and will they follow through on their promises to gut property investment?
                        Last edited by eri; 15-04-2018, 09:56 PM.
                        have you defeated them?
                        your demons

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by eri View Post
                          Can the new gov keep adding high paying jobs to the local economy? And will they follow through on their promises to gut property investment?
                          The only thing this gov't (or previous or likely replacements) are likely to do is botch up the situation and make it worse.

                          I only have to look at our local regional council, which is now crying crisis and hell-bent on stealing more from Ratepayers' pockets. (Around 20% more) The Crisis Bulletin just out goes . . .

                          Let's fix this now
                          Many of our rivers, streams, lakes and estuaries are a mess. It’s clear to us that fixing the issues in our environment needs a step-change approach. Our community is impatient for change. And so are we.

                          We need to ask you to dig further into your pockets to support this work. Our efforts will cost the average householder a little more per week. But the cost of not doing this work is even more. Protecting and enhancing our natural resources - our land, water, air, coast and biodiversity is in everyone’s interest.

                          How did they let it happen? How did they let it get to this point?

                          What no seems to have asked, let alone admitted to, is that such a 'crisis' makes it obvious that the councillors have been sitting on their hands while this happened. (Oh, except for when the hands were pulled from under them and extended for Ratepayers to drop some pay into them).

                          The same applies to the W'gton woodenheads. Earthquakes aside, the other crises to be dealt with are most likely of their own making. Us taxpayers just get to keep paying till it hurts. And then some.

                          Last edited by Perry; 15-04-2018, 12:06 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Davo36

                            Re Spain


                            Population chart




                            Spain house prices - price per sq mt




                            Unfortunately, unable to offer any more than that due to an inability to read or understand Spanish ...

                            The interesting comparison is - with a very small population decline, there was a 25% decline in property prices in Spain. Contrast that with Ireland, there was continued population growth, yet property prices fell over 50% from peak to bottom.

                            Also property prices in Spain haven't really risen from their bottom however they are up about 66% from their lows in Ireland.
                            Last edited by Chris W; 15-04-2018, 05:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by eri View Post
                              with the hundreds of new apartments recently finished in auckland central

                              queens residences, sugartree 2 etc

                              there seemed to have been no student bump to rents this year

                              and with hundreds more finishing this year

                              park residences, queens square, sugartree 3 etc

                              rents are unlikely to rise in the near term

                              and of course there are more coming the year after

                              connect, library17, antipodean etc

                              can the new gov keep adding high paying jobs to the local economy?

                              and will they follow through on their promises to gut property investment?
                              For those apartments which have not yet settled, wonder if these will be impacted by the foreign ownership restrictions recently bought in.

                              Also for those apartments which have not yet settled, wonder about the financing aspect - there were issues in Australia with pre-sales of apartments and when it came to settlement time, the buyers who thought that they had financing lined up, found that the banks were not going to provide financing. This could be due to

                              1) reduction of lending to borrowers with overseas incomes

                              Six months on from a bank clampdown on foreign lending, tens of thousands of Chinese property investors are struggling to pay for their off-the-plan apartment purchases.


                              2) borrowers no longer able to meet bank tighter debt servicing requirements
                              Last edited by Chris W; 15-04-2018, 05:33 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by eri View Post
                                with the hundreds of new apartments recently finished in auckland central

                                queens residences, sugartree 2 etc

                                there seemed to have been no student bump to rents this year

                                and with hundreds more finishing this year

                                park residences, queens square, sugartree 3 etc

                                rents are unlikely to rise in the near term

                                and of course there are more coming the year after

                                connect, library17, antipodean etc

                                can the new gov keep adding high paying jobs to the local economy?

                                and will they follow through on their promises to gut property investment?

                                For Auckland apartments, does anyone recall the magnitude of price changes from the peak in 2007 to their trough?

                                Comment

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