Kitchen moving across the hallway - consent?

[SHANEHANE]

Hi all,

A question regarding consent and kitchens.

I have read the 2004 BA and the 2016 amended "Guidance: Building work that does notrequire a building consent" I'm massively confused.

It seems the intent of the document is that if you move a plumbed item from 1 location to the other:
As long as the move doesn't significantly change the function of the pipes (like extending them 10m etc)
AND you're not adding any additional items into the plumbing (like an extra sink or toilet)
AND you have the work done by a cert plumber
You don't need consent.

I would like to move my kitchen from 1 room to across the hallway and the distance to the gulley trap is the same.
Do I need a consent?

[sidinz]

JohntheBuilder is a frequent poster on here who really knows his stuff around the building regs. He says 'no.' You can move sanitary fixtures without a consent but not add new ones.

[jimO]

that kitchen was always there.....why give the b@#$@#^s any of your hard earned money

[Shalodge]

JTB is a bit quick with this one. I wouldn't be quite as quick myself.. A kitchen is not a 'sanitary fixture". A sink is and so are taps. Kitchens can be very large or very small and moving "from one room across the hall" may not be a small thing. The information you have provided is no where near enough to make such a definitive statement in my book. Treat with caution any advice you get on forums especially from people who don't put their real names to the advice they give. Just saying.

[Davo36]

Best get a team from the council down to have a look.

Not just at the kitchen but your whole place.

They might well be able to identify many areas you're not compliant in.

[John the builder]

Best get a team from the council down to have a look.

Not just at the kitchen but your whole place.

They might well be able to identify many areas you're not compliant in.

know your rights and defend them
do the work and place in property file under a schedule 1 report. Dont remove structural walls but walls linings and openings of under schedule 1

dont trust the guidance documents go to the law as well

http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/ratesbuildingproperty/consents/Consent%20documents/ac2111recordofexemptbuildingwork.pdf

there might be a scanning fee but worth the money .....

[Scouser]

Not a builder but completely renovated a house recently and had very similar conversations with a number of builders\plumbers around bathrooms and kitchens and what can be done. I received a reasonably consistent feedback on the plumbing side. If you add a plumbed item then consent is required - end of story. You cannot add a bath when there is not one present for instance. If you 're-use' an existing plumbed item then you may move it but it needs to be in proximity to the original. You could change a bath to a shower. You cannot have, say, a house has with 2 toilets - and move one from upstairs to downstairs for instance as that's seen as removing the old and adding a new. I moved some plumbed items but a short distance, which is fine.

The answer to whether you need a consent is one of interpretation. In your case as you're moving the entire kitchen it's highly likely the council would say it needs a consent. Certainly, if you shop around you probably will find a builder willing to do the work without consent as they will be willing to do a liberal interpretation but in your position I wouldn't risk it. Try selling the place with a kitchen moved in a manner that doesn't match the LIM and without a consent - you'll only be able to sell in a bonkers market like the recent one or it will affect your price. I am not a builder obviously.

On an interesting side note some of the feedback in other areas of building was very inconsistent as some of the regs are poorly and ambiguously written. We frequently ended up gathered around a smartphone trying to agree what such and such a wording meant. The general advice from builders was not to involve the council in these circumstances as their interpretations are a lottery as they don't really know either. This was where the matter was marginal and not clear.

[Wayne]

The answer to whether you need a consent is one of interpretation. In your case as you're moving the entire kitchen it's highly likely the council would say it needs a consent. Certainly, if you shop around you probably will find a builder willing to do the work without consent as they will be willing to do a liberal interpretation but in your position I wouldn't risk it. Try selling the place with a kitchen moved in a manner that doesn't match the LIM and without a consent - you'll only be able to sell in a bonkers market like the recent one or it will affect your price. I am not a builder obviously.

The act of moving the kitchen cupboards etc doesn't need a consent (so long as it doesn't require any structual changes outside of sched 1).
The same number of plumbing fixtures apply and distance to gully is the same. Done by register plumber doesn't need consent.
So on what grounds would the council have for requiring a consent?

As for matching the LIM - I have a house that struggles to have the outline of the house on file let alone what it inside!

[sidinz]

Not a builder but completely renovated a house recently and had very similar conversations with a number of builders\plumbers around bathrooms and kitchens and what can be done.

Builders and plumbers don't necessarily know the rules, either. I was doing a bathroom and the plumber I had around wanted to see the drawings and consent. "Don't need 'em," I replied. He insisted I did, as I was taking out a 'shower over bath' and putting in a separate bath and shower. The exemptions clearly state that this doesn't count as adding a separate sanitary unit and I had to convince him of that as he didn't believe me.

[Wayne]

as I was taking out a 'shower over bath' and putting in a separate bath and shower. The exemptions clearly state that this doesn't count as adding a separate sanitary unit and I had to convince him of that as he didn't believe me.

Sid - I'm not saying you are wrong!
I am trying to keep up with the collected wisdom here.
Where does it clearly state that replacing a bath with a bath AND shower is exempt?

I see this bit

the alteration to existing sanitary plumbing (as definedin section 6 of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers
Act 2006) in a dwelling (for example, replacing a bath
with a shower or moving a toilet) carried out in accordance
with the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006

If you are relying on this then surely replacing a bath with 2 items isn't alteration of existing because one of the items didn't exist before?
I understand that the shower was there but the waste wasn't.

[jimO]

Sid - I'm not saying you are wrong!
I am trying to keep up with the collected wisdom here.
Where does it clearly state that replacing a bath with a bath AND shower is exempt?

I see this bit

If you are relying on this then surely replacing a bath with 2 items isn't alteration of existing because one of the items didn't exist before?
I understand that the shower was there but the waste wasn't.

so giving the council $500 makes it ok? same guy has done the same job its just had a tic from somebody in a hi vis and a clipboard

[sidinz]

I've seen it in a couple of things I've downloaded.

35. Alteration to existing sanitary plumbing
(excluding water heaters)
1. Alteration to existing sanitary plumbing in a building, provided that:
(a) the total number of sanitary fixtures in the building is not increased by
the alteration; and
(b) the alteration does not modify or affect any specified system.
2. Subclause (1) does not include an alteration to a water heater.
This exemption enables an authorised person (refer to the glossary) to carry out
alterations to sanitary plumbing. However, this is only as long as these alterations
do not increase the number of sanitary fixtures within any existing building and they
do not modify or affect any specified system.
Examples where this exemption could apply

Repositioning or replacing sanitary fixtures (eg a bath, bidet, wash hand basin,
shower or toilet pan) within an existing bathroom in a dwelling.

Moving a toilet pan from a toilet compartment into an adjacent existing bathroom
in a dwelling.

A home owner proposes to remodel an existing kitchen within the same space,
leaving the kitchen sink in the same position.

An existing laundry tub in a dwelling will be moved to a new location within the
adjacent kitchen.

Relocating, removing or shifting an existing hose tap.

Removing a bath with a shower over it, and replacing this with a new proprietary
shower enclosure and a new bath within the existing bathroom space. As the
existing bath/shower arrangement has two sanitary fixtures, each fixture can be
replaced and relocated without the need for a building consent.

From "GUIDANCE
Building work that does not require a building consent
Building Act 2004" Published by the MBIE

[SHANEHANE]

Hi thanks everyone.

Some feedback along the lines that I was thinking and certainly the way I would prefer to interpret the building code.

I do understand the limitations of moving anything structural, so yes there will be no structural wall removals, but I do want to move (replace) kitchen cupboards and benches which I don't think the council has a say in - although I'm sure they would be happy to take my money anyway.

As far as any LIM? Records were mostly lost in the Auckland Council fires of 1965 so I only have a couple of rough sketches of some additions permits from 1962 which loosely showed the layout of the house but doesn't include a lot of minor - and original looking - differences, so the LIM is as good as a wet napkin.

Thanks JTB, I will pursue the process based on the opinion of the certified plumber and electrician as to what they are prepared to certify outside the Consent requirements.

[Wayne]

so giving the council $500 makes it ok? same guy has done the same job its just had a tic from somebody in a hi vis and a clipboard

Did I say that Jim?
I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of the council process, just that the inperpretation of the law could be wrong.
As I said I was wanting to see if I had interpreted that bit right or wrong.

Do you think I have it wrong jimO?

[Shalodge]

I understand that builders and tradesmen don't like the consenting requirements under the Building Act...There are some dodgy trades people out there.. Any reading of the guidance material put out by MBIE will quickly lead most people to the view that moving a kitchen requires a building permit. This extract from the guidance paper..]

A home owner proposes to remodel an existing kitchen within the same space, leaving the kitchen sink in the same position

. (Is exempt per Sched 1 ..Doesn't need consent)

https://www.building.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/projects-and-consents/building-work-consent-not-required-guidance.pdf

Which leaves the obvious inference that if you move the sink or remodel the kitchen in a different place you do need consent.

I doubt that Council will chase you over this but when something goes wrong and there is fire or whatever .. good luck. You could simply ask but I imagine you wont because you know what the answer will be..