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Stats NZ: 10% have 60% of country's net worth

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  • #31
    Also every time this sort of discussion comes up I am reminded about the joke of the 10 men in the restaurant.

    The cost of dinner
    Each and every day, 10 men go to a restaurant for dinner together. The bill
    for all 10 comes to $100 each day. If the bill were paid the way we pay
    our taxes, the first four would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1; the
    sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; the ninth $18. The
    10th man – the richest – would pay $59. Although the 10 men didn’t share
    the bill equally, they all seemed content enough with the arrangement –
    until the restaurant owner threw them a curve.

    “You’re all very good customers,” the owner said, “so I’m going to reduce the
    cost of your daily meal by $20. I’m going to charge you just $80 in
    total.” The 10 men looked at each other and seemed genuinely surprised,
    but quite happy about the news.
    The first four men, of course, are unaffected because they weren’t paying
    anything for their meals anyway. They’ll still eat for free. The big
    question is how to divvy up the $20 in savings among the remaining six
    in a way that’s fair for each of them. They realized that $20 divided by
    six is $3.33, but if they subtract that amount from each person’s
    share, then the fifth and sixth men would end up being paid to eat their
    meals. The restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce
    each person’s bill by roughly the same percentage, and he proceeded to
    work out the amounts that each should pay.

    The results? The fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the
    seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $14, leaving the
    10th man with a bill of $50 instead of $59. Outside the restaurant, the
    men began to compare their savings. “I only got one dollar out of the
    $20,” said the sixth man, pointing to the 10th man, “and he got $9!”
    “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar,
    too! It’s not fair that he got nine times more than me!” “That’s true,”
    shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get back $9 when I only got $2?
    The rich get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men
    in unison. “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the
    poor!”

    The nine outraged men surrounded the 10th and brutally assaulted him.
    The next day, he didn’t show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him.
    But when it came time to pay the bill, they faced a problem that they hadn’t faced
    before. They were $50 short.

    The moral
    There are a couple of lessons to be learned here. The first is an observation
    from my wife: If the 10 individuals had been women, they probably would
    have figured things out. But in all seriousness, I’m going to suggest
    that the approach taken by the restaurant owner in the story is exactly
    the right approach to divvying up tax cuts. It’s how our system should
    work. The people who pay the highest taxes should get the greatest
    relief from a tax cut, in absolute dollars.

    The fact is, if you overtax the rich, they just might not show up for
    dinner next time. After all, there are plenty of good restaurants around
    the world.

    Comment


    • #32
      Wayne - great illustration of the issue.

      People see to have forgotten that:
      > there needs to be an incentive to work hard prosper - if the incentive is increased financial penalties (tax) at the top end or handouts at the low end people stop trying

      > the workforce is global now days those with high demand skills resulting in high earnings have both the choice and the means to chose the location of their place of employment and where they pay tax! Singapore personal tax rate sits somewhere near 10% - if you're even a mid level corporate employee - why not pay $15k on your $150k income in SG vs. more than double that in NZ?

      > before you look at what they're not getting they should look at what they've already been given.

      Comment


      • #33
        I take your point about globalisation but Sing is a bad example. Personal tax rate 15% or 22% for directors PLUS compulsory savings of 36%. Many nationals can't save a dime or buy a house because of CPF.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bobsyouruncle View Post
          I take your point about globalisation but Sing is a bad example. Personal tax rate 15% or 22% for directors PLUS compulsory savings of 36%. Many nationals can't save a dime or buy a house because of CPF.
          Is that the CPF that you take with you when you leave? Or the one that is locked up till you hit retirement age?

          we're also not discussing directors - we're talking folks on circa $150k... This is solid upper middle management salary - not director level.

          Comment


          • #35
            CPF is their compulsory savings until you retire. Makes an awful lot fo them very poor till they're old.

            Comment


            • #36
              I'm aware of what CPF is my question to you was can you take it with you when you're not a Singaporean citizen and you leave permanently?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Bobsyouruncle View Post
                Well that's a slightly different topic. Their tax is being credited back but they are still in the major tax payers on paper. If the top earners are only paying 24% of the tax then that proves my point. They pay very little tax relative to income, unlike the middle class.
                But the reference to wealth in NZ is assets and tax in NZ is based on income so top earners may not be wealthy households

                Comment


                • #38
                  Sorry Hype didn't understand your question. Prior to 95 you could take it with you when you left. Lots of law changes since then I am not sure now.. When I was there the level of contributions was the main source of complaint against the government.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    But the reference to wealth in NZ is assets and tax in NZ is based on income so top earners may not be wealthy households
                    True although one would expect generally one to follow the other.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      ^

                      so people are slowly shifting from earning to owning

                      leaving the tax take short

                      so the tax people would like to shift taxation from earnings to assets

                      but it's such a complicated and contentious issue

                      nz produces more than enough food to feed itself, selling it supports our foreign goods purchases

                      farmers currently own expensive assets not earning very much

                      taxing them on their assets would lead many to fold + sell

                      the banks don't want those farms...

                      should the tribes pay hugely increased taxes based on the value of their land holdings?

                      etc etc etc

                      it only ever gets raised in theory

                      as wherever people have perceived that assets have been unfairly over-taxed

                      they start dumping them and fleeing the country

                      triggering general collapse

                      Three years of shortages have left Venezuelans desperate and angry for change, posing the most serious threat yet to President Nicolás Maduro
                      have you defeated them?
                      your demons

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The tribes are charities and don't pay tax!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bobsyouruncle View Post
                          No problem, just interested. I "know" anecdotally that the middle class often pay more than their fair share of tax and the wealthy are very good at minimising it so it's just interesting.
                          I must be middle class as i find little areas to minimise tax 😊

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            and so they don't

                            A law change by the then-Labour government has for the past six years allowed the commercial arms of Maori tribes to gain charitable exemption from paying any income tax on their business profits.
                            And those businesses are getting big.
                            Tribes such as Waikato-Tainui and Ngai Tahu have become the country's richest iwi with combined assets of about $1.2 billion but they pay no company tax on annual profits of tens of millions of dollars made by their subsidiaries with charitable tax status

                            kind of hard to argue that google should pay tax in nz if the tribes don't
                            Last edited by eri; 01-07-2016, 04:21 PM.
                            have you defeated them?
                            your demons

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Would you eri?
                              Should be changed but imagine the howls.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bobsyouruncle View Post
                                Sorry Hype didn't understand your question. Prior to 95 you could take it with you when you left. Lots of law changes since then I am not sure now.. When I was there the level of contributions was the main source of complaint against the government.
                                CPF is a compulsory savings for locals in SG (or expats on local contracts) - This is paid out of income then when an individual leave SG permanently this CPF fund saving is taken with them - this was the case as recently as 5 yrs ago, i have no reason to believe it has changed.

                                The nett income on earnings for similar roles in SG vs. NZ is far superior in SG which is why countries need to be cautious of both corporate tax rates and on individual tax rates as both corporate and individuals at that level are very mobile.

                                The impact to NZ of higher taxes on these individuals is a lower quality of individual in these level of jobs making the country under perform.

                                The comment on ability to save... well i know people who can save money of an income of $40k while others who can't save a cent on $400k - ability to save is not a function of income level.
                                Last edited by Perry; 01-07-2016, 06:18 PM. Reason: fixed quoted text

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