Can my neighbor add a sleep out - without asking??

[Jean Paul]

Hi there - yesterday - out of the blue my neighbor decided to put a sleep out directly in front of our property (long ways!) on his side of the fence. We are in Waterview, Auckland and on a cross lease (three properties total on this) with the neighbor in question being the front property. The 'sleep out' is approx 4x2.5 meters so within the 10sq meter rule that I have found some information. But it is located 70cm (yep - 70cm!) from the fence between us and stands at just over 2.5 meters high. Considering our house is about 6/7 meters from this fence, it truly is right in our face.

It is hideous - and he at first claimed it was to store beds whilst they go away for 8 months to Europe but then confessed he would like to use it as an office after this. He would probably claim its temporary but the truth is it is not!

We usually have a very good relationship with this neighbor and I have told him after he watched us put alot of time and money into our front garden, that I was really shocked he didn't consult us about this at all. Not only that he got it delivered when we were out(!!!!!!!). When I asked him why he didn't put it in front of his property - he told me because they didn't want to have to look at it .

Small details are: It is a older sleepout so doubtful it has fire protection walls (my builder mentioned this may be a point being next to a boundary) and it does NOT have a kitchen or bathroom etc.

I want the thing gone - before I can speak to the council tomorrow - is anyone able to shed light on how we stand on this? Maybe on a rule such as percentage of land covered on his property (what is the legal percentage?)

Thanks,

Jean Paul

[Keys]

Read your cross lease document.

[Grundy]

I recommend you calm down and think very carefully about your future neighbourly relationship before screaming off to the council.
Your cross lease I am sure will ultimately have more clout depending on wording than anything some bureaucrat can do apart from start a war.
The guy has an 'accessory building' which he declares is a garden shed or an office. You call it a sleepout..semantics. Mind you with Auckland rentals if you see a portaloo and family move in then you have real cause to worry, but at the moment all he has to do if pushed is stick wheels on it and call it a caravan and you are stuffed.
Several years ago I heard of a truckie parking his big rig on his own part of a lawn on a cross lease and ultimately got away with it. The fight got expensive, acrimonious and neighbour relations died.
Suburbia is littered with garden sheds, even big ones against boundaries. Looking out my window I can see each of my neighbours have some and so do I. If it worried me I'd plant a few pittosporums.
I recommend you best read your cross lease first and maybe replan your shrubbery.

[Shalodge]

If it is a standard cross lease it will contain a section similar to this....

9 Not to make any structural alterations or additions to the flat
(a) not to erect on any part of the land any building, structure or fence, nor to alter, add to or extend any existing building on the land without the prior written consent of the lessors. Such consent shall not be unreasonably or arbitrarily withheld..

So you neighbour needs your consent but you have to be reasonable if you decline.

Good luck

Russell ORR

[Davo36]

Yep Russell had the right answer. He needs you consent for this. So this will require a chat to your lawyer.

But also, from a building/planning issue I reckon he can't do this. So I'd be off to the council.

But before all of that, have you asked him to move it? Tell him he definitely can't put it there and you want it removed. See what he says.

[Keys]

Ummmmm.

"Russell" was the third in this thread to say consult your cross lease.

I don't believe that there is a standard cross lease.

[Jean Paul]

Ummmmm.

"Russell" was the third in this thread to say consult your cross lease.

I don't believe that there is a standard cross lease.

What is the point in either of your responses on here 'Keys' - if you don't "believe" that there is a standard cross lease then you are obviously not clued up on this matter.

I came on here to get info and advise, not have some muppet state the obvious and cause arguments with people who actually bothered to respond properly.

[Keys]

OK then.


I'll ask the obvious.

Have you read your crosslease?

[Scave]

Hi Jean Paul, I have been through a similar situation with an ex-neighbour. In my situation, it was also a cross-lease property however the neighbour actually wanted to build an extension onto their house which would block sun from the rear (outdoor living area) of my house.

My experience was that the council are not particularly interested in getting involved in this sort of dispute. They were sympathetic, however because the extension met building consent requirements there was nothing they could do to stop it.

Important points you should be aware of:

- Ground coverage percentage rules apply across the entire section (i.e. the building coverage of all buildings combined as a percentage of the total section size, NOT a percentage of each cross-lesses half share). Therefore it's a bit of a case of first in, first served - they could use up some of "your" building coverage allowance and vice-versa.

- Height to light retrictions do not apply to cross-lease boundries. That means, the neighbour could potentially build right up to the cross-lease boundry without technically breaking any district planning rules. Height to light only applies to neighbours that are on a separate section/title.

- Most cross-lease agreements state that the cross-leasees can not unreasonably withhold consent. "Unreasonable" is obviously very subjective. The only definative means to determine who is and isn't being reasonable is to go to mediation and have the mediator make a ruling - this gets expensive as you will almost certainly require input from your lawyer.

Almost certainly your cross-lease will state that the neighbour should not have moved the sleepout into position without the consent of other cross-leasees. That said, enforcing the cross-lease agreement will cost you both in terms of cash and neighbourly relations.

Your best bet is to try and talk some sense into them. Ask them to come over to your side of the fence and see it from your point of view.

My ultimate advice - NEVER BUY ANOTHER CROSS-LEASE PROPERTY!!

[Petals]

I did a renovation on a crosslease property title.......but had to seek permission of the other lessor before commencing, per instructions from a lawyer specialising in property matters.

[Jean Paul]

Thank you for that - great advice. We will definately go down the democratic route - bit good to know where I stand legally. Cheers for taking the time to write that.

Jp

Hi Jean Paul, I have been through a similar situation with an ex-neighbour. In my situation, it was also a cross-lease property however the neighbour actually wanted to build an extension onto their house which would block sun from the rear (outdoor living area) of my house.

My experience was that the council are not particularly interested in getting involved in this sort of dispute. They were sympathetic, however because the extension met building consent requirements there was nothing they could do to stop it.

Important points you should be aware of:

- Ground coverage percentage rules apply across the entire section (i.e. the building coverage of all buildings combined as a percentage of the total section size, NOT a percentage of each cross-lesses half share). Therefore it's a bit of a case of first in, first served - they could use up some of "your" building coverage allowance and vice-versa.

- Height to light retrictions do not apply to cross-lease boundries. That means, the neighbour could potentially build right up to the cross-lease boundry without technically breaking any district planning rules. Height to light only applies to neighbours that are on a separate section/title.

- Most cross-lease agreements state that the cross-leasees can not unreasonably withhold consent. "Unreasonable" is obviously very subjective. The only definative means to determine who is and isn't being reasonable is to go to mediation and have the mediator make a ruling - this gets expensive as you will almost certainly require input from your lawyer.

Almost certainly your cross-lease will state that the neighbour should not have moved the sleepout into position without the consent of other cross-leasees. That said, enforcing the cross-lease agreement will cost you both in terms of cash and neighbourly relations.

Your best bet is to try and talk some sense into them. Ask them to come over to your side of the fence and see it from your point of view.

My ultimate advice - NEVER BUY ANOTHER CROSS-LEASE PROPERTY!!

[essence]

What is the point in either of your responses on here 'Keys' - if you don't "believe" that there is a standard cross lease then you are obviously not clued up on this matter.

I came on here to get info and advise, not have some muppet state the obvious and cause arguments with people who actually bothered to respond properly.

*leaps to Keys defence - TA DAH!!*

Hi JP, so you've done a total of 5 posts..... check out Keys posts. Not only does he NOT need to bump up his post count, he's been in the business a long time and definitely has a handle on what can be done, should be done in different circumstancs.

We love helping newbies on here who have problems, that's what this website was set up for. However, as guidance, I suggest you don't go on to a website and insult those who are trying to help you, it makes them think "why bother".

His comments were very valid. Maybe you should heed them.

[Winston001]

Mmm...I'm with Keys on this.

But whatever: for the record, cross lease titles are land ownership structures with rules and restrictions which specifically bind the lessor/lessees. These rules have nothing to do with council and council is not interested.

Thus you may be allowed by the council to construct a conservatory or a shed/fence etc, but the cross lease says that is unlawful unless all lessees agree. The council do not care. So long as their building rules are followed, the other issues are private property matters.

So just to be clear - you can do something which is legal, but its also illegal.

[Jean Paul]

*leaps to Keys defence - TA DAH!!*

Hi JP, so you've done a total of 5 posts..... check out Keys posts. Not only does he NOT need to bump up his post count, he's been in the business a long time and definitely has a handle on what can be done, should be done in different circumstancs.

We love helping newbies on here who have problems, that's what this website was set up for. However, as guidance, I suggest you don't go on to a website and insult those who are trying to help you, it makes them think "why bother".

His comments were very valid. Maybe you should heed them.

Your embarrassing yourself standing up for this guy. If you read his comments we wasn't being helpful - infact he should heed your advice and not "go on to a website and insult those who are trying to help you."

And spare me the newbie talk. This is a forum for everyone an we are all equal in asking and sharing information. I won't be given a pep talk on how I should behave and talk on a Internet forum - I am not a child and have not behaved as such.

Let Keys fight his own battles - he doesn't need you to hold his hand.

[TheLiberalLeft]

Careful, JP. The mods have a nasty habit of being just like Councils in that regard. They DO feel that they can give pep talks (stay on topic) and will control how you behave. Who said this: "Typical. Give 'em a uniform and they think they're Hitler"?