Latest update: Have just had an email from Fair Go about this story, and the Sensible Sentencing Trust are now in regular contact, providing additional support, advice, and information.
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Sleepout Buyers Beware!
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Hi One: I was stunned and horrified to discover that a convicted child sex offender has been on my property, and in the vicinity of my young daughter (who thankfully, is always fully supervised by her parents). I was also stunned and horrified to discover that the scam Grant King has pulled with me is just the latest in a long line of scams, deceptions, and rip-offs that he has allegedly been party to, over what looks like a 25 year plus period. The photos are in the public arena - I simply copy and pasted for the story.
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you could have got your point about him across without publishing her details. As it is, you're claiming she may be another victim and you've responded by publishing her name and photo in an accusatory manner????
That lost you all the sympathy I was feeling. It still sounds to me like you were due a refund for too-late delivery, but i hope that's all you get.
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Hi One: she is his business partner as well as his personal partner (Companies Office records confirm this) so she is in this up to her neck. She is also the registered owner of the work vehicle that attended my property. I do indeed make an assumption in the story I wrote that she was groomed (which in legalise, is termed "honest opinion"), which doesn't neccessarily mean that she is a victim, as she is apparently now in a consensual relationship with Grant King. Yes, I am most certainly due a refund, and will be doing my best to pursue one - however, given the information I have received from various sources about how Grant King has operated over the years, I am picking that by the time I get to the point of being able to serve papers on Grant King, he will be long gone from Helensville, possibly even from New Zealand. And if I win in Court, and he bankrupts himself, my information also indicates that this process will not be a new one for him to enact.Last edited by Letterman; 02-01-2012, 03:30 PM.
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I was stunned and horrified to see you've posted photos of his girlfriend. Whatever you think of the relationship, I think that's going way too far.That lost you all the sympathy I was feeling. It still sounds to me like you were due a refund for too-late delivery, but i hope that's all you get.
Exactly my thoughts when I read it this morning. You've overstepped the mark as you embark on a full-on smear campaign. Who he is living with, the age of this person, along with the references to the Sensible Sentencing site are not relevant to your situation in dealing with his business.Lisa
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Hi Lisa: My response is that any "smear" on Grant King and his associates is and will always be of his own making. I would argue that the issues you raise go to the very heart and character of the individual. Heart and character (along with trust, reliability, conscience, loyalty, respect, and fair play) are key existential pillars of "business". There is no "business" without the aforementioned being present. Very, very hard to separate all of these characteristics in the normal day to day ebb and flow of business I would suggest. I do recognise and acknowledge that some posters have issue with some of the material I have written on the www.nzsleepouts.com website, I just respectfully disagree with the position that what I have written is inappropriate, given both the set of circumstances and context within which it has been written.
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This is an interesting article in light of previous posts on this thread that have questioned as to whether we really get "justice" utilising our current legal system: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO120...is-failing.htm
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while letterman is pursing
his refund very hard
i don't think it quite makes a
blood feud
both are on the edge of a breaking wave here
it seems the builder can either
pay back the money
deliver the sleep-out
or have his dirty laundry airedhave you defeated them?
your demons
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Originally posted by cube View PostNo one is disputing that the NZ justice system is flawed, but it is the best we have and has no place in it for personal vendettas.
Grant King seems to have a different business model than L V Martin Ltd. If you keep the money & don't deliver the goods, what's the outcome
going to be?
I'd be hopping mad too if that happened to me, particularly if I thought I was being "gamed". I don't know if that is what's happened here,
but can't help wondering why Sleepout Man doesn't just sort it out. Maybe he's got cash flow problems, if he has he should be upfront.
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Hi Cube, hmmmm........I recently wrote a 65 page submission (with references and a sizable NZ case study) to the Ministry of Justice Family Court Review based on precisely the opposite view of the NZ Justice system that you have opined. If what we have is the best we have, then what role can change, improvement, outcome, efficiency, precedent, or equity ever truly fulfill? I think the word vendetta is indeed being inappropriately used (hat-tip: eri). A vendetta is a private feud, originally between Corsican or Sicilian families, in which the relatives of a murdered person seek vengeance by killing the murderer or some member of his family. I am seeking an outcome of justice and appropriate compensation for a civil wrong, and I have gone public in that desired outcome. "Fair Go" and "Target" seek this outcome on behalf of people such as me every week, and yet they are not accused of initiating a "vendetta". It is likely that, in my quest for the desired outcome, I am going to offend the sensibilities of Grant King, pehaps even those who know him, or those who in some way may sympathise with his self-imposed "plight". The question that isn't being asked however is this: what of my sensibilities? My wifes? My fathers? My daughters? Those who may pre-suppose that this issue is simply about a breach of contract and an unbuilt sleepout to my mind miss the whole point: this is about the core structures which form the matrix of personal and professional decency, the thread that sews the fabric of civil society together. I am a law abiding, decent human being who expects that others will treat me in a law abiding and decent way. "The golden rule" and all that good stuff. I am not sure that such an expectation is too much to ask?Last edited by Letterman; 02-01-2012, 08:42 PM.
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Hi Kapitibeanman, Yes, I absolutely agree that Grant King should just be upfront. I have not been able to achieve this outcome from Grant King to date howver -the last time he made me aware he had "cashflow problems", he asked me for $3500 so he could hire some labour to build my Sleepout by 1/12/11 at the latest - and then he went and spent this money on building someone elses Sleepout, and then he lied to me the entire way through about the supposed "progress" of my Sleepout. I'm not sure that Grant King has truly been upfront with anyone in his entire life. In Psychology, some patients are referred to as having a "seared conscience". Basically, it means that the patient has "quarterized" their awareness and practice of right and wrong, to the point that there is no conscious line of behavioural differentiation between the two - things just "are". Classical Sociopaths are reported to display these traits most commonly, as are Commercial Psychopaths (the "boss from hell" type of personality). Is Grant King bad, or mad? I'm beginning to suspect that he is a bit of both to be honest, because a well person would recognise all of the the evidence against them (which is now coming in from a wide array of sources), the growing social and mainstream media interest, and "sort it out" as you put it. No, for Grant King, this appears to be the hill that he wants to metaphorically die on. His choice, I guess.Last edited by Letterman; 02-01-2012, 07:59 PM.
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Hi Letterman
Can you possibly put paragraphs in your posts.
Your solid block of text puts me off straight away
and I can't be bothered reading it."There's one way to find out if a man is honest-ask him. If he says 'yes,' you know he is a crook." Groucho Marx
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Hi Muppet, certainly:
Hi Cube, hmmmm........I recently wrote a 65 page submission (with references and a sizable NZ case study) to the Ministry of Justice Family Court Review based on precisely the opposite view of the NZ Justice system that you have opined.
If what we have is the best we have, then what role can change, improvement, outcome, efficiency, precedent, or equity ever truly fulfill?
I think the word vendetta is indeed being inappropriately used (hat-tip: eri). A vendetta is a private feud, originally between Corsican or Sicilian families, in which the relatives of a murdered person seek vengeance by killing the murderer or some member of his family. I am seeking an outcome of justice and appropriate compensation for a civil wrong, and I have gone public in that desired outcome. "Fair Go" and "Target" seek this outcome on behalf of people such as me every week, and yet they are not accused of initiating a "vendetta".
It is likely that, in my quest for the desired outcome, I am going to offend the sensibilities of Grant King, pehaps even those who know him, or those who in some way may sympathise with his self-imposed "plight". The question that isn't being asked however is this: what of my sensibilities? My wifes? My fathers? My daughters?
Those who may pre-suppose that this issue is simply about a breach of contract and an unbuilt sleepout to my mind miss the whole point: this is about the core structures which form the matrix of personal and professional decency, the thread that sews the fabric of civil society together.
I am a law abiding, decent human being who expects that others will treat me in a law abiding and decent way. "The golden rule" and all that good stuff. I am not sure that such an expectation is too much to ask?
Hi Kapitibeanman, Yes, I absolutely agree that Grant King should just be upfront.
I have not been able to achieve this outcome from Grant King to date however -the last time he made me aware he had "cashflow problems", he asked me for $3500 so he could hire some labour to build my Sleepout by 1/12/11 at the latest - and then he went and spent this money on building someone elses Sleepout, and then he lied to me the entire way through about the supposed "progress" of my Sleepout.
I'm not sure that Grant King has truly been upfront with anyone in his entire life. In Psychology, some patients are referred to as having a "seared conscience". Basically, it means that the patient has "quarterized" their awareness and practice of right and wrong, to the point that there is no conscious line of behavioural differentiation between the two - things just "are".
Classical Sociopaths are reported to display these traits most commonly, as are Commercial Psychopaths (the "boss from hell" type of personality). One of the key traits of either personality type is in their ability to elicit sympathy and "play the victim" when confronted with their bad behaviour or the truth of what they have done. They truly believe that the law of natural consequences doesn't (or more properly, "shouldn't") apply to them, regardless of the damage and hurt that they visit upon other people. We often see Lawyers argue for such people thus in Court (a la the "he had a bad upbringing" defence).
Is Grant King bad, or mad? I'm beginning to suspect that he is a bit of both to be honest, because an emotionally and mentally well person in a situation such as this would I believe recognise all of the the evidence against them (not only mine, but which is now coming in from a wide array of sources), the growing social and mainstream media interest in this story, and "sort it out" as you put it.
No, for Grant King, this appears to be the hill that he wants to metaphorically "die" on. His choice, I guess.Last edited by Letterman; 03-01-2012, 05:46 AM.
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