Renovation and project manager

[greengreen]

I am thinking to renovate a 1940s brick and tile property to a nice family home.

When I searched on the net, I found many companies offering to do the complete package from painting, flooring, kitchen, bathroom etc, in other words they project manage everything and promise great result, on time, competitive price!

I also found specialised companies which do just kitchen or just bathroom or just roof or just garage and guarantee stunning results and great price!

Of course, there are also "stand alone" handyman: builders, plumber, electrician, etc.

Do these "all in one" companies actually deliver what they promise (good price, nice result)? Or is it better to use specialised company to do different parts of the house? Or is it cheaper to hire a handyman to do each job? How can these "all in one" company make money and still offer competitive price? Surely they must spend time and resource to manage the whole renovation project, or do they buy material at a better price compared to typical handyman?

[Dan Richardson]

You'll have different results with each - some project management companies will do a good job and deliver on time and on budget, and some will be completely blown out on both. Same goes with the individual specified companies though - half the time it's just luck of the draw.

Many project management companies make their money by taking a margin (e.g. 10% of all materials and labour costs you spend) and can do this because of good relationships with suppliers, which mean they pay less than you would for the same product or service.

If all other things were equal (e.g price, quality) you would in theory be better of going with the 'all-in-one' deal rather than individual companies or handymen, as it would save you money in your own time costs, which is something people often ignore when renovating.

[twoandcounting]

I agree with Dan. A good project management company or project manager will save you money, as they will know who does good work at a good price.

However, it can be equally as hard to find a good project management company, as it is to find good tradesmen. They will also of course make a margin, which is fair - they are saving you time managing it.

Whichever way you choose, you should get several quotes, and compare reference and reviews of previous customers. That will help you compare prices and previous performance.

Check my signature if you would like a good starting point,

Good luck,

Keith

[egan123]

Take my advice, and watch out. They are all experts, well, wait till they deal with councils. Remember, ultimately, the property owner is responsible for all compliance and consent issues. I've been at this game for 40yrs, and give advice, that most times isn't listened to, untill it all turns bad. Suddenly, everyone that was supposed to Project manage the redevelopement for the client, have headed for the hills, and left behind a trail of carnage.

Make sure you have a contingency of 10%, if you don't use it, GREAT, but there if you do.
I have dealt with your council before, they're pretty good, but the new ammendments can be a minefield. Every ones an expert, yea right.


I'M GETTING CYNICAL IN MY OLD AGE.

[Shane D]

Egan123,

Do you project manage renovations? I am guessing yes, but how big does the project have to be for you to consider taking on a job?

Shane

[egan123]

Gidday Mate, yep, small med, or large, its all the same to me. Rates for senior experienced PM's is between $195 to $350 per hour, me, I look at the complexity and charge accordingly. Currently doing a additional household unit for $90 per hour plus milage, and dispersements.

Will be available to take on a new project early June. Have two going at the moment.

Resource Consent Lodgement for one was 16 March, Council Approval 31st March. Its not what you know, but who you know. Sad, but true in todays construction Industry, don't like it, but thats how things are.

[Shane D]

Gidday Mate, yep, small med, or large, its all the same to me. Rates for senior experienced PM's is between $195 to $350 per hour, me, I look at the complexity and charge accordingly. Currently doing a additional household unit for $90 per hour plus milage, and dispersements.

Will be available to take on a new project early June. Have two going at the moment.

Resource Consent Lodgement for one was 16 March, Council Approval 31st March. Its not what you know, but who you know. Sad, but true in todays construction Industry, don't like it, but thats how things are.

Thanks for the feedback brother. Good to keep in mind, especially if the project requires "communication" with the councils :-).

Shane

[Lisa C]

Hi
My two cents:
Put out a simplified tender of the project to a bunch of companies you like the look of or have heard good things about.
Choose your top 2 or 3, get full quotes and timeframes.
Work out all the details prior to them getting started so the project is to your absolute satisfaction - this can take a bit back and forwardsing.
Once your happy leave them alone and let them go to it.
Usually works for me pretty well.

[Traff]

Thats wasting many companies time which is not necessary - choose 1 or 2 maybe 3 and ask them to quote only - less work and confusion and time wasted for everyone. You will find from the 3 you will strike a relationship with 1 and want to work with them usually and price and other issues will fall into place with them if you are on the same page - no job is ever without some issues so be prepared to be on a journey and choose wisely.

Regards

Mark Trafford

[egan123]

Thats wasting many companies time which is not necessary - choose 1 or 2 maybe 3 and ask them to quote only - less work and confusion and time wasted for everyone. You will find from the 3 you will strike a relationship with 1 and want to work with them usually and price and other issues will fall into place with them if you are on the same page - no job is ever without some issues so be prepared to be on a journey and choose wisely.

Regards

Mark Trafford

Could'nt agree more with you Traff. If people spend time trying to slash the price too much, then they get what they payed for, Monkeys usually.

[Stickman]

I am thinking to renovate a 1940s brick and tile property to a nice family home.

When I searched on the net, I found many companies offering to do the complete package from painting, flooring, kitchen, bathroom etc, in other words they project manage everything and promise great result, on time, competitive price!

I also found specialised companies which do just kitchen or just bathroom or just roof or just garage and guarantee stunning results and great price!

Of course, there are also "stand alone" handyman: builders, plumber, electrician, etc.

Do these "all in one" companies actually deliver what they promise (good price, nice result)? Or is it better to use specialised company to do different parts of the house? Or is it cheaper to hire a handyman to do each job? How can these "all in one" company make money and still offer competitive price? Surely they must spend time and resource to manage the whole renovation project, or do they buy material at a better price compared to typical handyman?

Agree very much with Egan123 with regards to his comments.

I am also a construction manager/project manager and have seen many many clients avoid sound advice and cook themselves badly.
For any project I undertake, I find it best to head down to council, make a meeting a senior council building planner and walk them through the project so that they can highlight any special concerns or consenting issues. It also gives you a chance to put them straight if they ask something unreasonable. (Which they sometimes do, don't forget that often their only experience is based on paper reviews).
Most companies who offer full renovation services have a margin (often 15% or so) on the materials and labour, but as previously stated, they also have relationships with their suppliers that means that they get lower prices than many others get. So really you are still paying the same if not a bit less than you could do it yourself.
If the project is big enough, I usually offer my clients access to my rates with subbies/suppliers (I spec build/develop my own properties as well) when they hire me to project manage for them.
This works quite well for new builds too, client hires me to manage their design, consenting and construction and I tender it for them to my subbies and suppliers. Once the bill for my time is taken into account, they often pay only the equivalent of half the usual builders margin. Also, no margins on variations etc. because the client defines and controls the specification, however it creates more work for me which costs them. Last client saved approx $400k on a 530m2 house.

So, depends if you want a turn-key option that is hassle free for you, or if you want to look down the avenue of saving some coin. If you have some time on your hands, why not give it a go yourself?

[Marej]

paid an architect a PM fee who in turn found a builder who was to manage the renovation end to end. I got regular timetables which was never adhered to and the program work just got pushed out several times. The costs blew out - mainly the labour was not forecasted correctly. I ended up intervening and organising a lot of the subbies once the GIB was up - ie, electricians, plumbers, painter, kitchen, heatpump etc because I was sick of being told the completion date not going to happen. Didnt get much out of the architect, except to be told that that was the way it works. The fee was a complete waste of money.

If I had the experience again, I would just get the builder to manage up to and including the gib installation. After that its the stopper, painter, electrical and plumbing fitout, heat pump installer , alarm etc. It just takes some basic phone calls and co-ordiation. Trick is to keep a good relationship with the builder and each subbie to understand the timeline. Most of these subbies are happy to do renovaitons - they are bigger fees for them and will be flexible. Check with each one, if they want the job, will they consider working some time in a weekend to make sure the next subbie is ready to go, rather than push it out all the time. Be clear about how long heach subbie needs so your expectations are reasonable as well. The stopper came in one weekend, and the plumber in on a Saturday morning. It was no issue.

Remember if you hand it over to someone, they have control over your biggest asset, your cash and practically your life for a period of time, so be sure your comfortable with that if you go that way. Good luck.

[LevenRiver]

Hi Marej, did you use a spreadsheet system to manage all the timings and schedules?

agree about having someone else control your cash. this is the biggest undertaking I've done, so there is plenty of incentive not to screw it up, not sure that other PM's have the same incentive???

[Davo36]

I used a project manager on my job. Some things he did very well, and saved me some money. Other things were not so good.

He made mistakes like missing things off of quotes (first one was an extra $10k for air con in one area which was missed off the quote we were going to use, so a big mistake), which then weren't included in the budget (which was exactly one of the things he was paid not to do).

The other problem I had was the builder did the thing where he started off really well and got a lot done quickly but then started doing other jobs, so that mine dragged on longer than it should have. And the project manager kept saying this was OK, and then finally admitted there was nothing he could do to keep him on the job.

I found myself doing a lot of the work, checking everything the project manager was doing etc. he had a total of 5 holidays during the build (which were never discussed at the beginning). And at some of these times, things went wrong which I had to fix.

And some other decisions were taken which I didn't agree with. Like some skylights in the office space having a suspended ceiling put under them, cutting off the light. And I was basically told, too bad.

Still, I couldn't have done it without him. He did all the dealing with the council (which I hate) but then wouldn't do the mirror resource consent fight, so I had to sort that out.

All in all, it was a very long and arduous process that I will never repeat. I would use a turnkey builder next time. Much less stress and hassle and basically the same price.

[Marej]

I would agree with the above - the only benefit in having a PM arrangement was managing the council inspections. Just be clear at the outset that that is what you expect of your builder. When your sourcing a builder, make sure they have tonnes of experience in building to a consent under your council. Other than that, PMs are just a pain and an extra relationship to manage during a stressful time.

Be interested to hear from home owners who used PMs successfully - ie was stress free, on time and on budget.