Earthquake Issues for Commercial Buildings

[Davo36]

My building came in at 53%. So not great, but not bad either.

Can you provide more details, like what kind of building (offices, retail, industrial etc.), age, number of levels etc.?

[kapitibeanman]

Ours are residential, in an 11 floor building "rated" mid seventies by WCC. The stairs are too "brittle" (read "strong" in old parlance), and we are busy installing sliders on each floor, just so people won't get caught like in Chch , in some modern buildings. We aren't making the building stronger, and I have variously heard it will or won't affect our rating. Also heard we were re-rated 30%. I don't get too anxious these days, there's a new story every month. The early movers may get it very wrong and waste a lot of dosh.
There's no use angsting, the quakes have hammered high-rise values, even the new high tech places pay more insurance. Unless we want to swap bushfires for moving ground, most of us are going to stay in NZ.
The high rises have to start funding what is almost certain to be a big increase in long term maintenance, and not get too out of step with the competition. Buyers getting in cheap will be more able to foot the pace, but city rents have to be on the way up.

[Davo36]

Interesting. yes my building was built in 2 stages, an older bit in the 50s which has a wooden floor, and a newer bit which has a modern looking concrete floor. Guess which is best? Yep, the wooden floor. Why? Because it's lighter. The concrete floor is really heavy so is a big liability when the building moves back and forth horizontally.

The IEP reports even take into account the buildings around you. If you're smack up against a stiff old building, then they assume you will get 'pounded' and so your building is less safe.

I agree kapitibeanman, it's all guesswork at this stage and I'm sure cheaper remedies will come along later.

[kapitibeanman]

Yeah, the concrete "slab" floor high-rise building method also is suspect now,
and the attachment process may need retro upgrading.

These sorts of issues will keep coming up ad infinitum as knowledge is gained.

The pounding issue is a bummer. The buildings jammed together need to sway together,
but Buckley's on that. Even if one or both have base isolators, the pounding risk would remain,
if reduced. Binding buildings together is one remedy being tried.

Where would you rather own: In a modern high-rise on low lying harbour land reclaimed in the horse
and buggy days, or a middle aged high-rise on solid ground 30 meters above sea level? Say The Terrace
versus Customhouse Quay, Wellington.

It's all getting a bit too exciting for me.

[eri]

Where would you rather own: In a modern high-rise on low lying harbour land reclaimed in the horse
and buggy days, or a middle aged high-rise on solid ground 30 meters above sea level? Say The Terrace
versus Customhouse Quay, Wellington.

It's all getting a bit too exciting for me.

at least living in a volcano field

aucklanders should get enough warning to leave

before the entire isthmus becomes a sea of lava

[Davo36]

at least living in a volcano field

aucklanders should get enough warning to leave

before the entire isthmus becomes a sea of lava

Yeah the Southern motorway's jammed every day, might be pretty hard to drive away from an event like that!

We should all have to build a bunker in our back yards. Such bunkers would need to be built to stringent standards, undergo regular checking for compliance by council officers, contain enough food for your own family plus 2 more families - who didn't have their own bunker - you selfish rich land owning bastard...

Seriously though, we just can't legislate to make everything totally safe.

[King13]

Thanks for the updates. Ours is a retail unit - ground + first floor. The upper floor is wooden and scores nearly 100% NBS! The ceiling of the lower floor is not adequately supported so drops the strength to under 33% NBS.

Lease comes up for renewal next year. Could be an opportunity to do the strengthening if tenant does not renew. This will be expensive + loss of rent, but gets strengthening out of the way and will get another tenant at a higher rent psm.

Some major decisions coming up, so appreciate the discussion.

[Re@der]

I am in a 16 flat building on the terrace. Council first notified that the foundations were not up to scratch and they gave notice that they would list us as an earthquake prone building. Got the engineers in and geo technical contractors did drilling etc, and Foundations were fine.
At the same time did investigations on the building producing an engineering model which said that there were issues with the construction and some strengthening will need to be done. This strengthening will affect different units temporarily and permanently so a bit of time and money trying alternative designs. So we have spent 50,000+ and not ready for construction yet and the building is listed. This process has taken over 5 years to date, two engineering companies and some individual owner expense. It is not simple.

[Davo36]

Thanks for the updates. Ours is a retail unit - ground + first floor. The upper floor is wooden and scores nearly 100% NBS! The ceiling of the lower floor is not adequately supported so drops the strength to under 33% NBS.

Lease comes up for renewal next year. Could be an opportunity to do the strengthening if tenant does not renew. This will be expensive + loss of rent, but gets strengthening out of the way and will get another tenant at a higher rent psm.

Some major decisions coming up, so appreciate the discussion.

Umm, the ceiling is not strong enough? What kind of ceiling is it? usually these things are just suspended and have no impact on seismic strengthe at all.

Upgrading a ceiling shouldn't be too tricky compared to a lot of other things I would have thought - apart from the hassle of trying to do it with a tenant in place.

Can you give more info on the ceiling?

[Davo36]

I am in a 16 flat building on the terrace. Council first notified that the foundations were not up to scratch and they gave notice that they would list us as an earthquake prone building. Got the engineers in and geo technical contractors did drilling etc, and Foundations were fine.
At the same time did investigations on the building producing an engineering model which said that there were issues with the construction and some strengthening will need to be done. This strengthening will affect different units temporarily and permanently so a bit of time and money trying alternative designs. So we have spent 50,000+ and not ready for construction yet and the building is listed. This process has taken over 5 years to date, two engineering companies and some individual owner expense. It is not simple.

Right, this is pretty serious. Doesn't sound like it's really terrible, but fixing the frame of a 16 level building doesn't sound easy either.

So you have my sympathy on this. All you can do is just progress slowly, making the most sensible decisions possible. Best of luck.

[King13]

Hi Davo - the ceiling is covered with tinder decor, so unless this comes off, the engineer cannot work out what will be needed. This was 2 (or 3) units opened up into one so once the walls came down, the ceiling lacks enough support. Have to meet the engineer and understand things better.

Fixing shouldn't be too difficult, but cannot be done with tenant occupation.

[Davo36]

Enquired about 2 properties today. 1 is an office space in a tower in Auckland CBD and the other is a block of 4 flats in a suburban area of Auckland (2 up, 2 down).

In both cases the agents say the buildings were built in the 1970s, but they don't know which year. When I explain that the buildign code changed in 1976 so it matters quite a lot whether it was before or after that date, they just kind of shrug and say they don't know and I should look into it further myself.

The block of flats was actually funny. The crappiest, most overpriced property I've seen in ages:

Situated down a rubbish strewn broken up driveway (shared with another crappy block of 4 flats), 2 supermarket trolleys, tree stumps, weeds etc. these 4 flats scream "Once Were Warriors" and smell like rotten meat.

Situated on top of a huge culvert the agent also knew nothing about, on a large section which the agent doesn't know the zoning of, or the new unitary plan zoning implications/opportunities (turns out it's 'single house', so useless), the left hand side of the block comprises no. 8 wire clotheslines in disrepair and the right hand side leads to more bits of broken drive and the crappiest set of carports you've ever seen.

The spare land at the back (which can't be built on) is commplemented by more chopped down trees (stumps left for aesthetic appeal), more rubbish and a selection of falling down fences on 3 sides.

The agent doesn't really know the rents but think they might be "$160 for the guy who's been in unit 1 for 20 years, $290 for another 2, and asking $390 for the one unit we went through which is getting refurbished (= crappily painted by owner)" And some of this includes power and water. So that might be like $1130 per week GROSS and they're only asking $1,150,000. So that's a massive 5.1% gross return on a run down pile of crap property. Fantastic.

[Maccachic]

This is interesting: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/9441...rk-safety-laws

[Davo36]

Yep the safety safety wallers will never give up.

[mrsaneperson]

The Guys here went to a Property Council presentation yesterday and were told by an engineer that 40,000 people have been killed on the roads and 185 after the ChCh quakes he said the risk needs to be put in perspective.

Very little of what is happening in the world today involves perspective..Thats why we have so many problems because everyones become obsessive about everything. The 4 words i hear most that are bandied about with random stupidity to defend every course of action: ...safety...equality..poverty..human rights...

Heres another blah de blah from another lawyer:


Christchurch lawyer Garth Gallaway said the legal responsibilities of employers and landlords were clear, and were not cancelled out by some councils giving owners a decade or more to strengthen buildings.
"There were no prosecutions from the Canterbury earthquakes but we are now all on notice," he said. In another event the authorities were likely to adopt a stricter approach.
Gallaway, a health and safety law specialist who represented the Mines Rescue Trust at the Pike River inquiry, said landlords and employers were in a "precarious position" even in cases of no harm.