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  • #16
    What do you mean big though? Somersoft has a $20 million equity option.

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    • #17
      I did wonder about doing two polls, one up to a million one beyond. The difficulty is that we can only have 10 options in a poll, so going higher means less specificity. Measuring the bigness of portfolios was only part of the point, the other part (and more interesting from my perspective) was measuring the average PTer versus the average NZer. That demanded more specificity at the lower end than the higher.

      Cheers
      David
      New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by RonHoyFong View Post
        Only 1% of New Zealanders have 5 or more properties.

        Only 5% of New Zealanders have 2 or more properties.

        Therefore from an investors prospective if 100% of property investors have 2 or more properties then I would have to say that 20% of property investors would have 5 or more properties.

        Your terms of what is a big investor ($2,000,000) is therefore too small.
        Hello Ron,

        Although I agree that $2,000,000 nett equity may be on the low side as the top mark in a survey like this, I question your other comment.

        How do you draw the conclusion that 20% of investors own five or more properties from the figures quoted?

        xris

        Comment


        • #19
          Xris I was puzzled by the same thing.

          At first I thought if the conditional (if 100% of property investors have 2 or more properties) held true Ron's maths were fine. But then I realised that this is still false because another condition would have to hold true, namely all property owners with two or more properties would have to be investors. But both conditionals are clearly false, since some property investors will have only one property (they live in rented accommodation) or perhaps even none (they are in between properties). Likewise some of those with two or properties may not be property investors, they may just have multiple dwellings that they live in. I guess the moral of the story is that making claims based on stats like this is always going to be perilous.

          I was more confused about the conclusion of Ron's argument:
          Originally posted by Ron
          I would have to say that 20% of property investors would have 5 or more properties.

          Your terms of what is a big investor ($2,000,000) is therefore too small.
          I didn't see how the final claim was supposed to follow from the claim that 20% of property investors have 5 or more properties even if it was true? Is it that if 20% have 5 properties then you must have lots more than 5 to count as a big investor? Or was it that to have 5 or more properties you had to have more than 2 Million net worth?

          But then, given that I don't buy the claim that only 'big' investors are worth listening to, I'm not that motivated to explore the puzzle.

          Cheers
          David
          New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Monid View Post
            Xris I was puzzled by the same thing.

            At first I thought if the conditional (if 100% of property investors have 2 or more properties) held true Ron's maths were fine. But then I realised that this is still false because another condition would have to hold true, namely all property owners with two or more properties would have to be investors. But both conditionals are clearly false, since some property investors will have only one property (they live in rented accommodation) or perhaps even none (they are in between properties). Likewise some of those with two or properties may not be property investors, they may just have multiple dwellings that they live in. I guess the moral of the story is that making claims based on stats like this is always going to be perilous.

            I was more confused about the conclusion of Ron's argument:

            I didn't see how the final claim was supposed to follow from the claim that 20% of property investors have 5 or more properties even if it was true? Is it that if 20% have 5 properties then you must have lots more than 5 to count as a big investor? Or was it that to have 5 or more properties you had to have more than 2 Million net worth?

            But then, given that I don't buy the claim that only 'big' investors are worth listening to, I'm not that motivated to explore the puzzle.

            Cheers
            David
            Originally posted by Monid View Post
            Well part of the point was to rebut Ron's ridiculous claim that there are no big investors left here any more... 33 of us with over a million in net worth I think there may still be one or two big investors kicking around even if they don't publicly identify themselves as such. It also provides some way of judging certain promotions such as the hype about a certain seven/ten million dollar man, remembering the much vaunted 10 million dollar man had from memory about 3-4 million equity.

            Cheers
            David Hunter

            David,
            Lets not forget that your original statement to rebut Ron's ridiculous claim...

            I am merely pointing out the $1m and $2m + is on the low side for establishing big fish Property Investors and from your own argument above the categories should be extended to $5m plus.

            I absolutely agree with you that Big Investors are not the only ones worth listening to, however why the hassle and negativity from the gang of ten. What's wrong with a balance of views or is it that only replies from smaller investors that counts?

            As I have repeatedly said many times in previous posts "After all who teaches the Teacher?"

            Why have this Poll anyway... are you not trying to prove a point that there are still some big fish around and not all have been put-off from posting regularly?

            Ron
            (My vote on an issue)

            PS - I don't count myself a big fish yet, I am only 2/3 of the way from my I/P goal and a very long way from purchasing even a secondhand Ferrari.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Ron, just to clarify as I stated above, there were several points of this poll. The first and main point was simply to get an idea of the average net worth of PTers, I'm interested in this because I was interested in comparing this to the average net worth of NZers. I thought it was an interesting topic. This was why the poll was designed to get specificity towards the low end, to compare to the average NZer with $350000 this was needed.

              A second point was to try and get a sense of how many big fish are around, which was prompted by your claim that they were mostly scared off although I will happily admit that this poll didn't go high enough to really determine this.

              A third point was to get a feel for the activity level on PT vs Somersoft, by comparing the amount of voting across a similar time span on the same issue.

              Anyway let me apologise for the 'ridiculous' comment it was churlish.

              Cheers
              David
              New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

              Comment


              • #22
                Excellent posting David - it's a very worthwhile poll and very interesting to watch it develop too.

                Good on you.

                Cheers,

                Donna
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                BusinessBlogs - the best business articles are found here

                Comment


                • #23
                  I dont think you need a new poll for those above $. The fact they have that much is enough.

                  What would be more interesting, and I dont hink this can be done with a simple poll (since you need to put in &#37, is how much of you gross worth (ie. ignoring debt) is in investment property, shares, business, PPOR etc.

                  For example, all the $2+ in this survey might actually have the majority of their weath in their busines (non property) or in shares. As such, the numbers above would be misleading.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hi CJ
                    There are a variety of interesting polls like this which can't be set up because they require at least two stages of questions or allowing the poster to select an amount. So for this poll it would have been very interesting to also have ages since of course net worth typically varies with age. I've been contemplating setting up another site just to run these sorts of polls and get some more solid data, but time is of course the problem.

                    Cheers
                    David
                    New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Well I guess my net worth has instantly increased 40k after getting a valuation for the purchase of my 1st place.

                      However this is just on paper.

                      It looks good though!!
                      Persistence (per-sis'tans, -zis'-) n. 1 The act of persist-
                      ing. 2 The quality of being persistent 3 The continuance
                      of an effect longer than the cause that first produced it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        All net worth is on paper, unless its stashed under the matress.
                        DFTBA

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hmm, very interesting, but more interesting would be to see actual annual profit made from all these "investments". Paper value doesn't count much to me.
                          Find The Trend Whose Premise Is False - Then Bet Against It

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Monid View Post
                            I've been contemplating setting up another site just to run these sorts of polls and get some more solid data, but time is of course the problem.
                            there are sites that let you run surveys for up to 100 people for free (cost more after that).

                            Or talk to Donna and Mark for them to have the first annual Property talk Investors survey. they might be able to add in a few extra questions which they can then show their advertisers (to ask for more money).

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Free is always good... I had a look around but couldn't find anyone who would do free after that first 100. That said there was less than 100 respondents. Maybe I will have to look into these some more.

                              Cheers
                              David
                              New to property investing? See: Best PropertyTalk Threads for New and Old Investors And/Or:Propertytalk Wiki

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Monid View Post
                                Hi CJ
                                So for this poll it would have been very interesting to also have ages since of course net worth typically varies with age. I've been contemplating setting up another site just to run these sorts of polls and get some more solid data, but time is of course the problem.

                                Cheers
                                David
                                Might be easier to just post it on the thread:
                                Age 29
                                ~1/3 Rental Property
                                ~2/3 Holding Company (mostly shares)
                                and a few pennies in cash
                                Category 6/7 (not sure exactly)

                                Woot! First post . I've been a lurker on the forum for sometime. Gleaned some interesting and useful information although as you can see from my spread I don't have a lot to do with property investment apart from one rental property bought many years ago without much thought going into it. Might dip my toes back in prop investment sometime next year.

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