What Is Property Investment?

[orion]

I agree with you Graeme however I would also point out that one of NZ's greatest coaches never played sevens.

Yes, I agree to a point Terry. However a coach does a lot more than just tell you how and where to run. It is also about belief in yourself, the will to win, training you to be in top health and phsyically fit, a positive mental attitude when it looks as if you are going to lose - not to give up, and probably the most important, teamwork.

I would also add that just because your on the court doesn't mean you actually know what you are doing.

Absolutely, but you are learning from experience, just like with anything. I had no idea what I was doing when I started, and learnt far more from doing it than what I had previously read in a book. It's similar to learning to ride a bike, you can read all about, talk to people that can ride bikes, but until you actually get on and try to ride for yourself, you won't really know how to do it, or what it's like. Very hard if not impossible to teach someone how to balance by telling them.

I know of plenty of Financial Planners in NZ that play on that court and don't know a thing.

Do you mean they invest themselves? I can totally believe that, but I don't think the whole profession really teaches you how to be really wealthy though.

I do like the idea though and it is a great one. Oh yes and just because someone is good at a particular sport does not mean they are a good coach, I was a great tournament fighter but sucked when it came time to teach.

Yes, very true.

Regards
Graeme Fowler

[McDuck]

I'm going to think outside the square on this one.

I really dont get conflicting infromation about property on this site.

So all other clarifications (re credibility) are not needed.

Also people can quickly see a mismatched idea amongst the general tide of opinion.

In summation:

All the big practical ideas are agreed upon by all posters.

Most of the abstract theoretical concepts in contention are of no use to beginners anyway.

In super summation:

What problem?

[Badger]

Not really sure what you are saying there Badger, so do you think all those people will live on the streets and not rent?

From personal experience when coin gets short other things you used to do you dont do, this is a ripple effect, get enough indivduals in a bind and it could become a wave. Where it all goes I can only guesstimate as other investors do, crime tends to rise....

Yes, I cannot see why it would not work in all markets, including the last 100 years.

The practice has been in operation for eons in Europe. Landlord was a profession, the rental culture has always been apart of Europe pshycology from King, Baron, Lord...but they did tend own what they owned out right or by decree not leveraged on credit....

The Culture in NZ is ownership thats a different basket imo.

Actually I did pass School C English, it was UE English that I didn't pass.

I was long gone and working for one of those old school land lords doing the donkey work on vacated renters....

There is nothing wrong with that at all. What I want to make clear though is that naturally everyone is entitled to their opinion, but without actually what I call 'being on the court' all the theory stuff is all good in theory, but sometimes that's it. What I mean by 'being on the court' is like in a tennis match. You can watch in on TV, even watch it live, you can read all the books about it, talk to people that play and then think you know the game extremely well, and would be an excellent player, but until you actually get 'on the court' and start playing the game, there is very little substance of actually knowing what it's like to 'play the game'. In no way am I getting at you Badger (and GreenFish if he/she isn't actually joking in the other post, & last week CommD), but in my experience being here on PT, often people will post a whole lot of information, and say 'do this, do that', etc, etc as if they have done it successfully themselves many times, but when it comes down to it, they have done very little actual investing.
If I was a new investor looking at all the posts and not knowing one person's credibility from another, I would find it extremely confusing knowing who or what to believe, if anything.

Regards
Graeme Fowler

Didnt think you were getting at me. I like challenging opinions and others assumptions since it challenges my own, .

Ive played the *game* ! Done ok out of it too! Now I play the other games on offer as well

As far as what others are seeking here at PT Id suggest they do due dillagence in regards to investing in anything, that means be prepared to do independant research and lots of it...

I read many things and all things and make my own mind up as to what is what in regards where im parking money or actively trading capital, my portfolio is not a million dollars, but its large enough to produce a modest income comparable to if not better than the illusion of a job or self employment, from investments and active trading over a nine year period, and yep Ive experienced many set backs and errors...

Errors only become mistakes if you fail to do anything about them....

[tpr2]

I'm in......lol

I agree with you Graeme however I would also point out that one of NZ's greatest coaches never played sevens.

I would also add that just because your on the court doesn't mean you actually know what you are doing

I know of plenty of Financial Planners in NZ that play on that court and don't know a thing.

I do like the idea though and it is a great one. Oh yes and just because someone is good at a particular sport does not mean they are a good coach, I was a great tournament fighter but sucked when it came time to teach.

[donna]

Great idea Graeme and anyone posting in the thread could link to their post profile in their signature so anyone reading their posts can click on the link to read the profile.

Okay - Graeme do you want to start the discussion and then we can 'stick' it. Once you have done your profile post - I will get a techie to add it to your signature so every time you post the link will show too.

Cheers,

donna

[jporteous]

Hi McDuck, yes it is a good one.

Donna or Marc, if you read this, what do you think about the idea of setting up a sticky with people that would like to post something about their background, experience etc in property / shares / commodities etc? If I was new to the game, I would get extremely confused about reading all the posts on here not knowing who had actually done the investing, and who hadn't.

Hi

I like this idea. As above suggest the background should be investment based rather than just property. Simply because its useful to discuss the benefits of a balanced portfolio. Peoples professional background may also be useful e.g. accountant / banker etc

Jono

[orion]

I like your "court" idea.
It's so true.

Hi McDuck, yes it is a good one.

But also I find that once you get the basics down, you can get stuck at a lower level unless you get some tactical thinking going (book learning).

Maybe, maybe not. I read one book - Jones on Property before I started, but knew I was going to get started when I had enough money saved, which took me about 18 months as a mechanic. Then not knowing anything, I bought the first property I saw that the agent said was a good investment property. I actually hated it, but bought it anyway. I sold it 7 or 8 years later for about a $40,000 loss. But the thing is, I was 'on the court'! I learnt a huge amount from that one deal, which made me millions later. If I had done more and more reading, courses, seminars etc, etc, but not done anything in practice, I still would not be 'on the court' and learning from my experience. Looking back now, it was the best thing because I learnt so much how not to do it. There are some people that go to one seminar, read one book, or even do nothing first, and become very successful in property. There are also others that do all the research, the seminars, reading books, mentoring programmes, graphs, ecomomics, statistics, demograhics, etc etc, but do very little, if anything. They can tell you all the theory, but when it comes down to it, they have never 'been on the court'.

Donna or Marc, if you read this, what do you think about the idea of setting up a sticky with people that would like to post something about their background, experience etc in property / shares / commodities etc? If I was new to the game, I would get extremely confused about reading all the posts on here not knowing who had actually done the investing, and who hadn't. In the early stages about 5 years or so ago on PT, I used to get caught up in huge debates wasting my time and theirs, as well as readers, having a big debate about something, only to find out later that person didn't even have any property themselves. So, if you have a sticky with just a few details i.e. background, age, how many properties bought, sold, traded, strategies used etc etc, I think it would be very helpful for newer investors to be able to see the person's credibility, before taking too much for granted what they are saying.
Whenever a speaker is going to do a presentation, the first thing after they introduce themself is something called 'earn the right'. In other words, you have to tell people why they should listen to you. If someone just got up and started rambling on for an hour or two about property investment, then you found that they had only ever bought one property in their entire life, you would feel pretty disappointed, I know I would. When posters like NZ Gems (Robyn), Spurner (Matt), Toby and a few other people that often post on here say something, I will always read them because I know they are experienced investors. To me, they have something worthwhile to say, based on 'being on the court'.
What to you think Donna/Marc?

Regards
Graeme Fowler

[McDuck]

you can read all the books about it, talk to people that play and then think you know the game extremely well, and would be an excellent player, but until you actually get 'on the court' and start playing the game, there is very little substance of actually knowing what it's like to 'play the game'.
Regards
Graeme Fowler

I like your "court" idea.

It's so true.

But also I find that once you get the basics down, you can get stuck at a lower level unless you get some tactical thinking going (book learning).
And focus, if you loose focus for a moment you can loose the point (mind training).
and if you are tired you loose subtle control (balanced lifestyle).

Just reading about something is only about one quater of the total learning.

[orion]

Yes, but what do you think will happen, suddenly all the unemployed people will either live on the streets or under a bridge?
That may happen. The WINZ experience of the early 90's taught me that a chewing gum benefit doesnt go far in getting finances level, which can lead to other problems down the road...

Not really sure what you are saying there Badger, so do you think all those people will live on the streets and not rent?

It means that it works in down markets, side-ways markets and up markets.

That strategy, may work. Looking back 10 -15 years is that long enough? Since the past 10 -15 years or so has been based off temporary arrangements. Those arrangements are changing...

Yes, I cannot see why it would not work in all markets, including the last 100 years.

Could be, I failed at School C English.

Passed school cert, left at the end of the 5th form.

Actually I did pass School C English, it was UE English that I didn't pass.

Ok, good on you. You must be very busy with no sleep! Since the discussion is mainly on properties, what properties have you bought or sold in the last 10 years?

I get plenty of sleep since I pick and choose when to trade.
Sold two properties, bought none.

There is nothing wrong with that at all. What I want to make clear though is that naturally everyone is entitled to their opinion, but without actually what I call 'being on the court' all the theory stuff is all good in theory, but sometimes that's it. What I mean by 'being on the court' is like in a tennis match. You can watch in on TV, even watch it live, you can read all the books about it, talk to people that play and then think you know the game extremely well, and would be an excellent player, but until you actually get 'on the court' and start playing the game, there is very little substance of actually knowing what it's like to 'play the game'. In no way am I getting at you Badger (and GreenFish if he/she isn't actually joking in the other post, & last week CommD), but in my experience being here on PT, often people will post a whole lot of information, and say 'do this, do that', etc, etc as if they have done it successfully themselves many times, but when it comes down to it, they have done very little actual investing.
If I was a new investor looking at all the posts and not knowing one person's credibility from another, I would find it extremely confusing knowing who or what to believe, if anything.

Regards
Graeme Fowler

[McDuck]

For the umpteenth time: Demand for housing is irrelevant to the property market. If you want an expanded explanation, I will provide it, for the umpteenth time.

I want to back you up.

See, if lots of people want something, that's not a demand.
Lots of people who want something, AND can also afford to pay for that thing, now that's a demand.

People need to figure out that one is a wish and one is an actual demand (in economic terms).

[NZGEMS]

I haven't read all this thread but I would like to offer this little bit of info and if it has already been said then great the more people hear it the more likely it is to sink in.

HE OR SHE WHO BUYS WHEN OTHERS ARE SELLING MAKES THE MONEY

translated BUY NOW at a discount of course. plenty of properties around which will cover their mortgages now too.

good luck.

[orion]

Badger is obviously correct. Property is all about timing. When you come to the end of the standard 7 year cycle, only to find a huge global recession/depression, then that must mean you stay out of the market and wait, for a very long time.

I guess that must be a joke, but no smiley face.

Regards
Graeme Fowler

[Green Fish]

For the umpteenth time: Demand for housing is irrelevant to the property market. If you want an expanded explanation, I will provide it, for the umpteenth time.

Badger is obviously correct. Property is all about timing. When you come to the end of the standard 7 year cycle, only to find a huge global recession/depression, then that must mean you stay out of the market and wait, for a very long time.

School C English: 88 (weedy nerd).

[Tucker]

So things are going to change and nobody will live in houses from today onwards, nice. Keep talking about all these unemployed what about the 90%+ that still are don't they still rent?

[Badger]

Yes, but what do you think will happen, suddenly all the unemployed people will either live on the streets or under a bridge?

That may happen. The WINZ experience of the early 90's taught me that a chewing gum benefit dosnt go far in getting finances level, which can lead to other problems down the road...

It means that it works in down markets, side-ways markets and up markets.

That strategy, may work. Looking back 10 -15 years is that long enough? Since the past 10 -15 years or so has been based off temporary arrangements. Those arrangements are changing...

Could be, I failed at School C English.

Passed school cert, left at the end of the 5th form.

No, not at all! Buy and hope is buying with the Hope that the property you have bought goes up in value. What I am saying is, it doesn't matter and I don't care if it goes up or down in value, if the purpose for buying is to keep as a long term rental property.

Thats a good way to view PI imo. Old school Landlord approach.

I don't call that profit at all, I call it cashflow. Profit to me is what you save when you buy, or make when you sell.

Point Taken!

Ok, good on you. You must be very busy with no sleep! Since the discussion is mainly on properties, what properties have you bought or sold in the last 10 years?

Regards
Graeme Fowler

I get plenty of sleep since I pick and choose when to trade.
Sold two properties, bought none.

Cheers
Badger