What's in a number?..

[drelly]

Ooh goody a religious debate! Perhaps we should have a "random debate" forum?

Dean, I've never understood why some creationists think there is no room for evolution within their belief system? Clearly, there are continuous changes through generations, whether hereditary, environmentally affected or mutations.

[Josko]

Seriously though. This is not property talk and we should relocate it. I'm happy to start a thread here: http://prosblogion.ektopos.com/ a philosophy of religion weblog which I happen to be one of the posters/moderators on, but only if enough people pm me with a request for a serious academic debate on this. If not, I believe talkback radio and letters to the editor are a fairly usual place to carry out these debates

David

WOW thats one serious site, this topic does interest me so I think I'll read up on the subject matter first and before getting involved, thanks for pointing it out.

[cube]

Ooh goody a religious debate! Perhaps we should have a "random debate" forum?

Maybe its just another sign of the slow property market at present!

cube

[Dean@Massiveaction]

Clearly, there are continuous changes through generations, whether hereditary, environmentally affected or mutations.

Hi Dave. There are changes which can be attributed to genetic or environmental issues. There is yet to be one absolute proven "evolutionary" mutation recorded or proven, EVER!!

[Heg]

There is yet to be one absolute proven "evolutionary" mutation recorded or proven, EVER!!

Have you met my husband?

[SuperDad]

Hi Dave. There are changes which can be attributed to genetic or environmental issues. There is yet to be one absolute proven "evolutionary" mutation recorded or proven, EVER!!

Dean, I think what you mean to say is that there have been no proven cases of genetic mutations that have proven beneficial for the human race. (Heg's husband?) Intelligent design theorists (or scientifically savvy Christians) concede that nature is full of mutations. What IDTists argue is that none of these mutations offers an improvement on the perfect designs engineered by God.

I don't agree with IDT (or at least certain implications of IDT). But it does not say that there have been no mutations. In a funny way, Eve is a mutation (or perhaps a clone) of Adam, having been made from one of his rib bones. (Genesis 2:21,22.)

Paul.

[drelly]

Is the belief that the current form of humanity must be perfect if it was designed by God at any point?

Ask my Physio if we have the perfect design and she might not agree... hands up who has a bad back!

Would a creation that has the ability to evolve not be considered superior to one that did not?

[SuperDad]

Would a creation that has the ability to evolve not be considered superior to one that did not?

Only if "evolution" entails "improvement". Otherwise all change is for the worse.

[Jumpin]

Only if "evolution" entails "improvement". Otherwise all change is for the worse.

Surely the whole thesis of evolution is that change for the worse eventually dies out, and mutations offering improvements (=increased fitness for survival) become the norm.

[Monid]

Hi Dave. There are changes which can be attributed to genetic or environmental issues. There is yet to be one absolute proven "evolutionary" mutation recorded or proven, EVER!!

I would have thought the fossil record, and genetic connections between different animals was a rather good piece of evidence for evolutionary mutations.

But in any case,what about selective breeding? You see the reason why cows produce more milk these days is that we select to breed the most productive, doing this over time creates more productive milkers. This is in effect human enforced evolution. You see mutants don't have to look funny, they just have to have a very slightly different trait that is advantageous in a particular situation in terms of reproduction. Like increased milk production in a cow.

Alternatively if you need a more visual image of a mutant, then think about dogs, why are there so many very different looking varieties? Well in part because we have breed them, selecting dogs with similar characteristics or mutations and breeding them together, over time having brought about significant differences.

Oh and finally, what do you mean by an evolutionary mutation? I hope you don't mean a mutation in response to changes in environment? This is of course not part of evolutionary theory, which simply holds that sometimes, rarely, mutants will have traits that are more advantageous in the current environment. In this situation they will flourish and out compete others without that trait. Over time this can lead to very significant changes.

David

[Dean@Massiveaction]

then think about dogs, why are there so many very different looking varieties

Because God loves variety, colour, variation. That's why He created so many differences in so many species. Because He can and He's clever

[SuperDad]

O.K. Suppose I take two cats (Heg's cat and pooomba's cat), and get them drunk enough to make the cat with two back. A few weks later, Heg's cat gives birth to a litter of little cats (perhaps we can call them hooombas, or pegs?). Did I create these cats (by selectively breeding their parents), or did God create them (because he loves variety)?

Presumably Dean would say the later - perhaps God was working through me, but his invisible hand was guiding the process. Ultimately, I was not responsible for the hooombas (or pegs). - God created them.

The problem with this line is that it removes all free-will from humans, and therefore all responsibility. If God takes all of the (causal) credit for our actions, then why should we care what we do? (Indeed, are we even free to care?) After all, we have no control.

If we do have free-will, then why can't we allow that sometimes we can be responsible for things that are outside of God's will, like a new breed of cat?

And what does this have to do with property?

[Heg]

O.K. Suppose I take two cats (Heg's cat and pooomba's cat), and get them drunk enough to make the cat with two back.

How dare you? My cat would never touch alcohol. And as for letting Fluffy anywhere near her.....She had a scare like that a few years back. Put her off for life. Why do you think she looks like she does?

[Heg]

Thought someone on this thread may like this http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.asp?id=66901645

[Josko]

O.K. Suppose I take two cats (Heg's cat and pooomba's cat), and get them drunk enough to make the cat with two back. A few weks later, Heg's cat gives birth to a litter of little cats (perhaps we can call them hooombas, or pegs?). Did I create these cats (by selectively breeding their parents), or did God create them (because he loves variety)?

God created them, just because you provided the alcohol and the venue does not mean that hooombas or pegs ( I like the way you think) were not created as a result of God's original intended design, but try doing this with a dog and a cat you will soon see that you have no say in the matter, naturally as it was intended.