Religious Education in Primary Schools

[Perry]

Argument by assertion is neither
reason, nor logic, nor rationality.

[John the builder]

I haven't put the arguments as neither have those with contrary view refuted the existence of God.

The truth is neither of us can convince the other but it is unreasonable to not acknowledge that the existence of God is possible and even probable.

It is simple mathematics and probabilities that atheism requires a greater leap of faith than belief in a deity. .

[Perry]

Habeus Evidentia

You are dealing in a logical fallacy.

Because you assert without proof that there is
a god, you cannot then expect any counter-point
evidence against to be presented.

It is difficult - or impossible - to prove a negative.

It is also incumbent on the proponent to prove
the proposition asserted. Not until the case in
favour is fully propounded is the the opponent
in the debate required to adduce rebuttals.

Perhaps a good start which would be to specify
the deity concerned?

Vishnu
Ahura Mazda
Jealous (Exo 34:14)
Zeus
Osiris
Thor
Odin
Allah
Quetzalcoatl
Jehovah
Ra
Shakti
Isis
Gaia
Brahma
. . . and so the list could go on.

[John the builder]

i don't expect 'counterpoint evidence' from this group of Atheists but the issue of education has been raised by others and if you think keeping children ignorant of the possibility of the existence of God is possible, and an important part of our cultural foundations and heritage, then who is really indoctrinating who?

God by his nature is 'unprovable' that is the great question around mans existence that has been debated for millennia by greater minds them mine.

What is incredible is that only in modern times have we got Atheists trying to stop the very questions being asked.

[artemis]

................... What is incredible is that only in modern times have we got Atheists trying to stop the very questions being asked.

There are gazillions of places where questions can be asked. I don't think secular state schools should be one of them.

[Perry]

Nonsense

What is incredible is that only in modern times have we got Atheists trying to stop the very questions being asked.

I doubt if any atheists are trying to stop any questions about any god being asked.
It's the indoctrination that atheists find unacceptable. The 'education' being dis-
cussed is not education, but inculcation or brain washing. That's because only
one deity construct is being promoted, rather than any broad analysis and study
of a range of ancient and modern religions, with their respective pantheons.

[drelly]

John, your arguments make no sense at all. Not believing in something that atheists believe there is no evidence for doesn't require any faith. As far as possibilities go, in an infinite universe, anything is possible, so the existence of a god is as likely as flying space unicorns and yet, I don't feel the need to worship them either.

Having said that, you are welcome to believe in whatever you want to. You just shouldn't expect to propigate your beliefs to primary school kids. Also, there is NO questioning in RE classes, just indoctrination. Also, I wouldn't want to replace christian indoctrination with "atheist" classes either. I have no issue with aspects of religion being studied as part of history, social studies etc... the same as any other topic. There's a NCEA course on it as well.

[John the builder]

John, your arguments make no sense at all

.
nothing makes sense to an atheists because you just accept everything?

Not believing in something that atheists believe there is no evidence for doesn't require any faith.

If something can't be proved either way then you need faith to believe or not. How else could you hold the view (or not).
As far as possibilities go, in an infinite universe, anything is possible, so the existence of a god is as likely as flying space unicorns and yet, I don't feel the need to worship them either.

Having said that, you are welcome to believe in whatever you want to. You just shouldn't expect to propagate your beliefs to primary school kids.

surely education should be the whole child and awareness of a spiritual nature is part of that. It is only in recent times that the state took over education and the Church were the educators. On your basis perhaps history and philosophy should not be taught either as they involve world views as well?

Also, there is NO questioning in RE classes, just indoctrination.

I think the lack of discussion is imposed on the process which can only be informative as the problem with questions is who is giving the answers. God spoke in parables and this is likely the same for the Bible classes.
Indoctrination is an emotive word. Do you also indoctrinate when you expect your child to eat with a knife and fork and not fight with their friends steal or harm?

Also, I wouldn't want to replace christian indoctrination with "atheist" classes either.

in effect this is exactly what you are doing and if you were honest you would not deny this.
Education without some reference to our spiritual nature is an incomplete education we need to at least understand the beliefs that have shaped our culture to appreciate our values and laws and where they came from. If you object to bible classes then you will object to the Christian teacher answering a question as well that doesn't fit with your world view. You will not stop at this point. Why not be mature enough to allow it in its limited way?

[drelly]

nothing makes sense to an atheists because you just accept everything?

On the contrary. A rational person accepts nothing as fact without evidence. Faith is only required in the absence of evidence.

If something can't be proved either way then you need faith to believe or not. How else could you hold the view (or not).

Not really. You can't disprove space unicorns but I wouldn't say you had "faith" that they didn't exist. I'd say you rightly believed they didn't exist based on a lack of evidence for them.

surely education should be the whole child and awareness of a spiritual nature is part of that. It is only in recent times that the state took over education and the Church were the educators. On your basis perhaps history and philosophy should not be taught either as they involve world views as well?

"Spiritual" means entirely different things to different people and within different cultures. So no, I don't think spiritual things should be taught in schools. There's a BIG difference between instructing children in religion and teaching children about religion. So you've misunderstood me. Teaching about religion isn't a problem in the context of history, literature, social studies, philosophy, etc... there's an NCEA course in religious studies. However, RE classes at primary school are purely indoctrination via an organisation whose stated goal is the evangelisation of children into their Christian faith.

I think the lack of discussion is imposed on the process which can only be informative as the problem with questions is who is giving the answers. God spoke in parables and this is likely the same for the Bible classes. Indoctrination is an emotive word. Do you also indoctrinate when you expect your child to eat with a knife and fork and not fight with their friends steal or harm?

That's actually a good example of what I disagree with. In an RE class, they would say things like "God spoke in parables", with the implicit teaching that there is a god and that he did speak. That is not objective learning, it is indoctrination. And yes it is emotive but I am using it in a factual sense. Indoctrination is where something is taught from a position of authority from one specific viewpoint. And yes, it is exactly like instructing children in behaviour.

in effect this is exactly what you are doing and if you were honest you would not deny this.
Education without some reference to our spiritual nature is an incomplete education we need to at least understand the beliefs that have shaped our culture to appreciate our values and laws and where they came from. If you object to bible classes then you will object to the Christian teacher answering a question as well that doesn't fit with your world view. You will not stop at this point.

I wouldn't deny them anything. I'd be happy to discuss religion with my kids. I am not happy for the local bible bashers to weasel their way into my kids school and infect them with their ideas. I would object to a teacher discussing religion outside an approved lesson, and so would the ministry of education. As mentioned before, there is a difference between discussion and instruction. If it is appropriate to what is being taught, discussion is ok.

Why not be mature enough to allow it in its limited way?

This sounds like my schools board member (a devoted Christian) saying; "What harm does it do?". Firstly, I think it does do harm but that is my opinion and a Christian would obviously disagree. The point is, what right does any religious group have to come into a secular school and teach their beliefs. It is immoral.

[Perry]

Certain things like religion should only be taught
when the children's faculties have developed to
the point that they are equipped with evaluation
tools based on reason, judgement and logic.