A New Zealand first? Unconsented UFB installation

[recemember]

Hi all, first time posting but what recommended by another user.

I'll try to keep this brief and to the point:

- Tenant requested UFB to be installed, permission to get tech to advise scope of works only given.
- Tenant gets install carried out, falsely signing that they have my permission for the scope of works provided by the tech (I have never seen these scope of works nor consenting to the install).
- Install is poorly positioned, threatens watertightness of cladding due to multiple penetrations and installed as a complete eyesore.
- After over a month of discussion and understanding the process to remedy, notice to remedy sent to the tenant with clear instructions on how to remedy.
- Some/little action has been taken by the tenant with notice now expired. This is representative of my whole dealing on this matter... the tenant shows little concern and I am the one doing all the leg work on understanding how this can/should be remedied, eg. through Chorus etc.

Would love to see this tenant gone as he is just a major pain in the arse for a number of previous reasons. Keen to take to TT and apply for termination order but expect order to remedy is more likely.

Two questions:

- How much inaction from a tenant to remedy something could warrant a termination order?

- And the curly one, the remedy I have put to the tenant is to have the cabling rerun as to how I would have agreed for it to run had the proper procedure been followed. And of course all damage from the removal of the existing run to be repaired. I fear that the remedies available to me under the RTA are only for removal and make good. However, this doesn't consider, as I have discovered, that each property in NZ is effectively entitled to the "subsidy" for installation by Chorus, paid by the Govt. If it is only uninstalled, and I want to, or a new tenant wants to install at a later date, there will be no subsidy available and this is likely to cost me at least $1,000.

If anyone could provide advise on this matter, that would be very much appreciated.

[props4u]

Think I'd rather leave this for our local gurus (Keys, Glen and handful of others) but would like to draw your attention to one other issue you havent mentioned and which must also be remedied, at a cost, should that be remedial course of action you wish to implement

Apart from your loss of "subsidy" and to best of my knowledge, once UFB is installed you lose copper wire connection altogether. Restoring copper wire connection (your prerogative as LL) can only be done at a cost. You need to research what that cost is, to factor it into your claim with TT for remedial costs.

[revdev]

...and to best of my knowledge, once UFB is installed you lose copper wire connection altogether. Restoring copper wire connection (your prerogative as LL) can only be done at a cost. You need to research what that cost is, to factor it into your claim with TT for remedial costs.

Props, are you able to offer any more info on this at all. I currently have a tenant asking for UFB install and I was trying to see what (if any) downsides there were at all. Cheers

[recemember]

Apart from your loss of "subsidy" and to best of my knowledge, once UFB is installed you lose copper wire connection altogether. Restoring copper wire connection (your prerogative as LL) can only be done at a cost.

Ok, I wasn't aware this is a side effect of having UFB installed. So of course the copper remains active for phoneline? But you're saying that they disconnect for use for ADSL or VDSL?

You need to research what that cost is, to factor it into your claim with TT for remedial costs.

One of my biggest issues/frustrations is no one can actually give me pricing on anything and every communication/instruction is meant to come from the tenant as the "end user" according to Vodafone/Chorus.

[Davo36]

I'm involved in the installation of UFB at a building in Auckland CBD. I'm on the body corp committee.

I can say Chorus, and their various sub contractors are USELESS.

Difficult to deal with, incompetent etc. Yesterday I drove into town for a meeting with them, and they didn't show up!

So it's frustrating, but it's a good service to have for owners and tenants alike, so dealing with them is just a matter of managing things as best as possible.

[Wayne]

Ok, I wasn't aware this is a side effect of having UFB installed. So of course the copper remains active for phoneline? But you're saying that they disconnect for use for ADSL or VDSL?

The copper will remain.
You can use it for voice or Broadband.

[props4u]

Too hard to explain in one or two lines and best started by relating factual story

During a power cut experienced in Auckland two to three years ago, my neighbour (50 metres away), couldn’t use his landline phone but I could use mine!

Copper wire during power cuts is unaffected because they are on a separate circuit independent of standard power lines and copper wire remains powered up (some 5-6 volts or was it 21-22V, I don’t recall). The question remains, why couldn’t my neighbour use his landline when I could use mine

Because his ISP uses VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) for his phone calls, just as one does through Skype

But what has this got to do with power cuts? Well, one reason is you need a modem (some call it router) to connect with internet and when you have a power cut, the modem is dead and out of service, therefore no internet connection, hence no VOIP or phone calls

Why do ISPs use VOIP? Because it is by far cheaper for them to run calls through the internet than it is to run it through copper wire

It isn’t publicised and ISPs don’t tell you they are giving you phone line through VOIP when they offer you cheap bundles (packages) nor do they tell you that you can’t use the phone during power cuts, they leave it up to you to find out the hard way, which is why the masses are ignorant of the fact

Heaven forbid, in the event of a calamity, I’d hate not to have a working landline phone, which is why I wouldn’t subscribe to UFB for any of its glories like streaming movies etc, whoopee doo, how paramount and crucial is ultra fast high definition video for bettering our lives (not)? For their profits, they want you to run before learning to walk. Yeah, sure, we now have smartphones and smartwatches but until they improve battery life and make them solar powered, such devices are shortlived in event of emergencies. Look at what’s happened in Vanuatu … I’m quite happy with ADSL2 for time being, that’s my opinion!

Wayne
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Just the same as being unable to have both Dial Up connection running alongside in conjunction to a Broadband connection at same time – You can’t choose to have both UFB and copper wires (standard broadband) working together in tandem, it can only be one or the other, not both at same time!

While the copper wire will not be removed and remains in place, I’m under the impression it is disconnected if UFB is operational. Please let me know if otherwise

recemember
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On installing UFB, the copper wire is not removed, it is merely disconnected. To restore that copper connection they have to send techo out to both your site and the chorus exchange, as well as disconnect the UFB. I’m assuming they won’t do it for free and will definitely charge you for it. The question is what will they charge? Would it be 50, 100, 200 or more bucks? I wonder

Davo36
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As recemember aptly named his thread, “a nz first”, it would be much appreciated if you could update us as to how you are progressing and other related issues. Perhaps in this thread or start new one dedicated to UFB and your BC, the costs, issues etc? Thanks

revdev
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Hope some or any of above is of some use. Sorry can’t be of further help as am not fully acquainted with UFB technicalities

I do wonder about this though … “Unconsented UFB Installation”, it would be interesting to learn how TT adjudicators would rule in such case and I would further suggest the RTA should be amended and include requirement for tenant to produce LL’s signed consent – It is after all the LL’s property

[Wayne]

It's 50v dc and supplied from the telephone exchange (via batteries (huge) and backup generator) down the copper wire.
The idea of the fibre is to replace the ageing copper so it replaces the copper.
The phone is provided via VOIP not because it is cheaper but because, if you get rid of the copper, it is the only way to go.
It is the way of the future so get used to it. New subdivisions don't lay copper.
If you want the phone to work during a power cut use a UPS.

Interestingly most people use cordless phones these days - these need power. No power - no phone!
I would have to dig deep in a box to find the plug in phone.

[DazRaz]

After the Sept 2010 quake, we lost power, water and phone. Once the water and power came back the phone was still down. Talking to the neighbours, I found out they got their phone back with the power. After a little bit of investigation, I found a piece of roofing had sliced through my phone cable. I used my cellphone to call faults. Really no problem.

Funny thing was the call centre in Manila told me it would be over a day before someone could come out to fix it as there had been an earthquake in Chch. Like I didn't know that! One hour later Chorus turned up and fixed it.

[Wayne]

It isn’t publicised and ISPs don’t tell you they are giving you phone line through VOIP when they offer you cheap bundles (packages) nor do they tell you that you can’t use the phone during power cuts, they leave it up to you to find out the hard way, which is why the masses are ignorant of the fact

I have just read the disclaimers from the major ISPs - they all state that phone needs power and most indicate that it needs internet also.
Orcon's one is the most comprehensive.

[PTWhatAGreatForum]

It sounds like the OP is just being difficult. If it matters so much, why weren't you present at the initial install scoping visit? You could have also been present at the install - to make sure it was done properly and all...

- Tenant is paying you rent. Every week, right?
- They want UFB broadband. That is their right - like power and a phone line. Why should they have to wait on you to stuff around (all the while running the risk of a run around or disappear into nowhere land)

This whole thing would have been a non-issue with a bit of willingness and understanding on behalf of the OP.

Having experienced a couple of lazy landlords myself, I fully understand why they went this route. They want UFB now, not next century.

Because his ISP uses VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) for his phone calls, just as one does through Skype

But what has this got to do with power cuts? Well, one reason is you need a modem (some call it router) to connect with internet and when you have a power cut, the modem is dead and out of service, therefore no internet connection, hence no VOIP or phone calls

Why do ISPs use VOIP? Because it is by far cheaper for them to run calls through the internet than it is to run it through copper wire

It isn’t publicised and ISPs don’t tell you they are giving you phone line through VOIP when they offer you cheap bundles (packages) nor do they tell you that you can’t use the phone during power cuts, they leave it up to you to find out the hard way, which is why the masses are ignorant of the fact

Heaven forbid, in the event of a calamity, I’d hate not to have a working landline phone, which is why I wouldn’t subscribe to UFB for any of its glories like streaming movies etc, whoopee doo, how paramount and crucial is ultra fast high definition video for bettering our lives (not)? For their profits, they want you to run before learning to walk. Yeah, sure, we now have smartphones and smartwatches but until they improve battery life and make them solar powered, such devices are shortlived in event of emergencies. Look at what’s happened in Vanuatu … I’m quite happy with ADSL2 for time being, that’s my opinion!

Where have you been for the last few years? Most of the world's voice traffic is over IP, including Spark/Telecom. Yes, that's right.

Alleged ISP conspiracy = yawn. Get with the times.

I'm surprised you put your trust in ADSL2 over fibre. How do you think the data gets from the exchange to your ISP and the rest of the world?

[DazRaz]

- They want UFB broadband. That is their right - like power and a phone line. Why should they have to wait on you to stuff around (all the while running the risk of a run around or disappear into nowhere land)

Care to show us where their right to UFB is in the RTA?

[PTWhatAGreatForum]

Care to show us where their right to UFB is in the RTA?

UFB is a utility, don't you know?

[Bob Kane]

UFB is a utility, don't you know?

Tenants have no rights to phones or UFB.
If the LL doesn't supply them, what can the tenant do?

[Wayne]

Most of the world's voice traffic is over IP, including Spark/Telecom. Yes, that's right.

Spark has only just launched their VoIP (or voice on UFB) product.
They still have over 2mil switched phone circuits (POTS or Plain Old Telephone Service).