So Key is standing by Parata...

[Bob Kane]

That will certainly be long enough for people to forget you posted that and not check if your prediction comes true.

They couldn't get the current payroll system to work with $100 million.
Something will have to change to get a replacement application working.
Either change the requirements (teachers employment contract) or throw a larger amount of money at it.
Which is the more likely option?

[Winston001]

I did a bit of research a while ago about the implementation of new software systems in large enterprises. Surprisingly, indeed astonishingly, it seems that around 40% of new systems falter. Now, that may be because of unrealistic expectations by the purchaser but it also suggests software geeks simply don't understand what the client needs.

The Police INCIS computer debacle is a case in point. IMB developed a system which worked but the Police (naturally) asked for various extra enhancements which sounded simple but from a coding perspective, were very difficult. In the end IBM wanted out of the contract and some compromise was reached - but IBM took a bath. Total loss. One of the few wins for the NZ taxpayer.

You should note that IBM today are a shadow of what they were.

[Winston001]

Just consider the previous post and think about the impending Inland Revenue computer upgrade. It is imminent and budgeted at $1.3 billion.

I am a simple man. For me a Toyota built in Japan is just as useful as a Bugatti built in Italy. Or Slovenia. Actually I prefer the Japanese car because I can get parts and everyone drives it. Boring but it works.

There are more than 200 nations on our fair Earth and many of them are very able taxgatherers, which suggests - and I may stray into the improbable here - that a computer system used by the clever countries might - just might with bits turned off, be suitable for a tiny nation at the bottom of the South Pacific.

A system off the shelf. Nah. Silly me...

[Bob Kane]

The Police INCIS computer debacle is a case in point. IBM developed a system which worked but the Police (naturally) asked for various extra enhancements which sounded simple but from a coding perspective, were very difficult.

This is what I've been banging on about for the last couple of years.
The teachers requirements are so complex that no payroll system can handle them.
No-one can afford to pay for the modifications that would be needed.
Teachers - who claim to be clever people - don't realise this.
They are going to have a reality check soon.

[Bob Kane]

There are more than 200 nations on our fair Earth and many of them are very able taxgatherers, which suggests - and I may stray into the improbable here - that a computer system used by the clever countries might - just might with bits turned off, be suitable for a tiny nation at the bottom of the South Pacific.

That's a big question alright.
Why can't we have a generic tax system that collects tax?

[Wayne]

This is what I've been banging on about for the last couple of years.
The teachers requirements are so complex that no payroll system can handle them.
No-one can afford to pay for the modifications that would be needed.
Teachers - who claim to be clever people - don't realise this.
They are going to have a reality check soon.

Yes you have been banging on about it - no doubt about that.
Datacom had a system that worked (but needed modernising) and weren't chosen for the new system.
New system, same requirements (well same teachers contract), and it doesn't work.
Must be the employment contract and teachers fault!
It is so obvious - why can't I see that?

[Wayne]

Either change the requirements (teachers employment contract) or throw a larger amount of money at it.

You can't see a third option?
Like get someone competent in?

[Wayne]

Just consider the previous post and think about the impending Inland Revenue computer upgrade. It is imminent and budgeted at $1.3 billion.

It has been suggested by a few NZ 'experts' that the project should be split up into smaller, managable, chunks.
Local developers would then be able to get a piece of the pie and rather than one big failure at the end you might get a few successes along the way.

[Bob Kane]

You can't see a third option?
Like get someone competent in?

We're still waiting for someone to step forward.
Do you know anyone?
(I suspect the competent people have costed it as more than the Education Dept can afford - ie in the $100s of millions.)

[Wayne]

We're still waiting for someone to step forward.
Do you know anyone?
(I suspect the competent people have costed it as more than the Education Dept can afford - ie in the $100s of millions.)

I don't think novocane were the only bidder in the 1st place.
Datacom are probably sitting around saying "I told you so"

[artemis]

It has been suggested by a few NZ 'experts' that the project should be split up into smaller, managable, chunks.
Local developers would then be able to get a piece of the pie and rather than one big failure at the end you might get a few successes along the way.

Rod Drury has suggested a public/private partnership which, he says, will save hundreds of millions.

"Drury said Inland Revenue could save "hundreds of millions" if it just published the tax rules, maintained a computer that could collect tax payments, and left the rest to private-sector businesses such as Xero.

That would not mean everyone would need to pay to use Xero's cloud-based service, or those of its rivals, he said.

Instead, Xero and other software companies could offer a free service that would let taxpayers key in any information needed for tax returns into online forms and would process that for no charge as part of a broader, non-exclusive partnership, he said.

"The private sector could do the 'heavy lifting'. Inland Revenue doesn't really need to build all the complex rules any more; all they need to do is be a transaction system that receives money and publishes the rules and the private sector is more than happy to invest in building the online returns."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/10219999/Inland-Revenue-mulls-Rod-Drurys-proposal

[Learning]

I don't think novocane were the only bidder in the 1st place.
Datacom are probably sitting around saying "I told you so"

Bob's very forgetful at times. I've pointed out to him in the past that there were 11 tenders for the contract including Datacom who had been running a successful system for a number of years. Labour went with Talent2 instead. After the first few months of messing it up National asked Datacom to get ready to come to the rescue but Talent2 promised to sort out their own mess. Now the mess is well and truly out of the headlines the pressure is off the government to get a fast resolution so Talent2 got it's get out of jail free card.

[Bob Kane]

Well, we should have 10 keen companies ready to deliver very shortly and the teachers can sleep soundly at night?

[Wayne]

Well, we should have 10 keen companies ready to deliver very shortly and the teachers can sleep soundly at night?

The teachers will be up all night marking essays and doing reports - it's what they do!

[Bob Kane]

They should be up all night - learning how to count!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11459426

The paper, written by a researcher for the New Zealand Initiative (NZI) business group, criticises a $70 million Government maths project for failing to improve results and says teachers' maths abilities are letting children down.

"When teachers can't do simple fractions, that's shocking," said NZI executive director Oliver Hartwich. "Teachers have to take some of the responsibility."