Len Brown and the Port of Auckland

[Keys]

I see nobody is recognizing that the port has unlawfully sacked the workers? Happend to me in the past and my union enforced the law through the courts. Employer was severally smacked on the hands. Many thousands of dollars worth in our lawyers fees etc.

[donna]

I thought most Jobs are now contract based - even pseudo permanent jobs are now fixed term contracts - and you'd guess this is a step towards full contract style work where not only do you need to renew the contract you are also responsible for your super, acc levy, tax payments etc. There will be ongoing protests but it won't change the outcome as Businesses seek to trim their expenses and improve their profit for their shareholders.

It can be a winner if you know how to make it work for you.

cheers,

Donna

[speights boy]

So Donna
As an example

Do you think bank tellers working for MegaBank should be independent contractors, as opposed to employees of MegaBank ?

[TheLiberalLeft]

In many ways they already are, speights boy, and in an even worse way. Offshoring the back office and in some instances customer service helplines to some far-flung entity that is contracting to the bank, has access to detailed customer records and is not subject to NZ laws has more than a small potential to hit the fan.

[Perry]

And who allows them to do that? T'wouldn't
be the NZ lawmakers, by any chance? Includ-
ing Labour, the working persons friend.

[TheLiberalLeft]

Are you suggesting laws should be put in place to prevent business making these sorts of cost-savings, Perry? That seems very draconian of you. I didn't politicise the practice. Not entirely sure why you feel the need.

[speights boy]

TLL

You will notice my question specifically mentioned bank tellers.

Last time I dropped into megabank to chat with my favourite tellers, and withdraw my $50 for a couple of rounds at the RSA; I did not have to travel via Manila.

They are also able to join FIRST Union (previously Finsec) if they so wish.

So; my question remains.

[Perry]

Are you suggesting laws should be put in place to prevent businesses making
these sorts of cost-savings, Perry? That seems very Draconian of you.
I didn't politicise the practice. Not entirely sure why you feel the need.

Linking cause and effect is what it's called. Laws? Depends on what's meant by that.
In NZ there are a raft of laws binding on employers regarding employment. Just how
many paid holidays apply in NZ? About six weeks, when stats are added to annual
leave. Throw in ACC levies, paid sick/maternity/bereavement leave, kiwisaver con-
tributions, Minimum Wages, Health & Safety, Resource Management, Factories Act
and so on.

Then tell me how many of those offshore employees and employers are subject to
those same conditions? I suggest: none. So what assorted governments have done
(are doing) is export the jobs of New Zealanders to other countries, where working
conditions are illegal, by NZ standards. Then 'forcing' NZ employers to compete,
who in turn, do bad things to their employees. Or go under.

Look at it another way.

Let's create an area within NZ somewhere. An enclave that's a couple of hundred
square kilometres and call it ConUnist Inja. In that area, no NZ law applies. Into
that area come all those sweat-shop labour economy workers with their 'home'
working conditions. Throw in a few smoke and carbon-belching coal fired power
stations, one or two open cast mines, pour waste into the river and pollute the
ocean terminus outflow area and ground water . . . And guess what?

Those who criticise from outside the Berlin-type walls with guards atop around this
enclave will be told, "don't meddle in our internal affairs. Besides we're making use
of these sorts of cost savings to give you a cheaper product."

Cost-savings?

Many NZ employees are being ground-down by the effects of a regulated and
closed labour market having to compete with an open and largely unregulated
labour market, offshore.

And as they're ground down, the rest of us suffer as the NZ's economy is slowly
strangled by this insidious thing erroneously and euphemistically called free trade.
If there is no free movement of labour, there can be no free trade, except in
name only, for the benefit of a few, only.

When wages are so low that paying the rent gets more burdensome, what of PIs?

[Meehole]

I see nobody is recognizing that the port has unlawfully sacked the workers? Happend to me in the past and my union enforced the law through the courts. Employer was severally smacked on the hands. Many thousands of dollars worth in our lawyers fees etc.

How have they unlawfully sacked the workers?? That union is only one of many at the Ports. Perhaps your concern should be for the other hundreds of staff that work there that have been intimidated and threatened by the union and its members. Very sad when an employee has to fear for himself and his family in his own home.
It is a squeaky wheel situation, I would love to protest against the protesters and give them a taste of their own medicine.
As far as contracting out goes, other companies will tender for the work and the employees will be paid an honest wage for an honest days work, simple as that! The days of milking the system are gone for them.

[speights boy]

As far as contracting out goes, other companies will tender for the work and the employees will be paid an honest wage for an honest days work, simple as that!

Good idea.

Lets put all the Admin jobs up for tender to Indian and Philippine companies.

[TheLiberalLeft]

I'm not arguing with your reasoning, Perry. In fact I agree. My own industry has been undermined by offshoring. You hit the nail on the head when you say "Then 'forcing' NZ employers to compete, who in turn, do bad things to their employees. Or go under."

Of course they do not want to go under, so they have no option but to compete. Only problem is, as you've noted, it's hardly a level playing field in many aspects of business costs, taxation being one of my gripes.

But you haven't answered my question - how would you correct the situation? What laws would you introduce? Whichever way you slice it, the law you add will be a protectionist law. In the long term those sorts of laws don't do anyone any good.

The advocates of free trade insist that these 3rd-world places will be lifted out of poverty and brought up to 1st world levels. I guess Singapore wouldn't be a bad example. Trouble is, in the 2-3 generations it'll take to do this, the level of western lifestyles will be dragged down as the 3rd world is brought up.

[TheLiberalLeft]

Speights - the fact that backoffice staff (independent offshore contractors) have access to accounts and records, placing the same independent (onshore) contractors as bank tellers would be no different. So to answer your question - no, its no different, so why not hire contractors for this role. Save a shedload on sickleave and holiday pay.

[Perry]

But you haven't answered my question - how would you correct the situation?
What laws would you introduce? Whichever way you slice it, the law you add
will be a protectionist law. In the long term those sorts of laws don't do anyone
any good.

Yes, there is a solution; no, it's not protectionist. And it's too long-winded to
go into, now. And somewhat of a strained aspect of PI, to boot.

However, how's about we apply standards to labour as we do to their products?
So if we wont allow cars into NZ that don't meet certain standards, we wont
allow such standards-compliant cars in, which have been produced by non-labour-
standards-compliant workers.

How might that fare for New Zealand employees and employers? Adjust the tilt
on the level playing field a bit in their favour?

[Meehole]

Good idea.

Lets put all the Admin jobs up for tender to Indian and Philippine companies.

That is not even an option, the dispute is over the jobs the stevedores do and already a fair percentage of them are non pakeha.

[Perry]

The advocates of free trade insist that these 3rd-world places will be lifted out
of poverty and brought up to 1st world levels. I guess Singapore wouldn't be
a bad example. Trouble is, in the 2-3 generations it'll take to do this, the level
of western lifestyles will be dragged down as the 3rd world is brought up.

I suspect that the bumpy ride down will be harsher and quicker; and the much
mooted lifting up will be nominal and very lethargic. I wonder what NZ pre-GFC
unemployment figures were before free trade (a misnomer) became the vogue,
compared to the aftermath?

That misnomer
We have alleged free trade movement of capital, goods and services. Until we
have the same free movement of labour (not going to happen!) then free trade
is worse than a euphemism. It's a downright lie by the said ignorant 'advocates!'