Advice please on electricty/water usage...

[steven anderson]

Perry, thank you for clarifying, it certainly was not what I had in mind.

[Perry]

I know what they are but who certifies it as reading correct?

The same people who certify that a 10 amp circuit breaker is actually 10 amps.

Anyone can pay to have them checked. A tenant once suggested that accuracy
may be in question. I said the same as powercos do: we'll get it tested. If it's
wrong, I'll pay, plus the variation; if it's right, then you pay. The tenant declined.
(The test fee was circa $100, then.)

I suspect that most people have a fair idea of what the bill should be like, based
on past experience.

Steven, regarding the other aspect - the fuse box - as you put it. Each meter
should be hooked up to separate mains switch and separate circuit breakers,
(or fuses, if an old installation), for each tenancy. A common hot water cylinder
does seem odd, but if a pre-tenancy agreement was entered into on the basis
of a per person apportionment, it could be tolerable, even though rather unusual
(or antiquated) and certainly far from ideal.

[Wayne]

The same people who certify that a 10 amp circuit breaker is actually 10 amps.

but you aren't charging someone based on the certification of a 10A CB are you! And 10A CBs aren't 10A - it is a bit more complicated for them. Never had a meter so have no idea where you would go to get it tested.

[Perry]

Jeees Wayne . . .

There are - most everywhere - private electrical inspectors who
can do such testing. The reality is that such meters are widespread.
The one shown had a CE mark. Not the be-all and end-all, but it
does indicate a good degree of compliance with EU standards.

If there was a problem with them, electrical wholesalers would be
probably the first to alert people to that. Your idea that all such
things should be certified leads nicely on to who will certify the
certifiers? At some point, based on a balance of probabilities,
one can reasonably expect a product to perform as expected.
E.g. Do Mr Rentals have every appliance they hire and charge
for certified as a bona fide dish washer, microwave, fridge, etc?
I doubt it.

[Wayne]

Come on now Perry - if you don't know if your dishwasher is washing you have real issues. I can't tell if I have used the 1kWh the meter says I have used and you prove it! I would be paying you per kWh - you don't pay for the dishwasher per wash (or per 100% clean wash). Even the 'proper' mters installed by the power companies have issues at times.

Really I wonder what leg you would have to stand on if the Tenant said - prove it! Maybe all tenants are reasonable - LOL.

Maybe it is worth the risk of a tenant comeback compared with the alternative cost of a seperate full power feed.

[Perry]

Even the 'proper' meters installed by the power companies have issues at times.

Agreed. I said that they can be verified. The powercos had (have?) some sort
of process that deals with meter accuracy. If testing shows it to be inaccurate
by some percent, the powerco pays. If not . . . ?

LLs with check meters can do much the same.

Maybe it is worth the risk of a tenant comeback compared with the alternative cost
of a separate full power feed.

That's not all. Getting final readings, getting a start-up account going and watts
flowing, providing a guarantor/bond etc: all are obviated with a check meter. To
some prospects - walk-in/walk-out electricity supply - is an attraction. The other
side is that it's also another credit risk for a LL. Can't have it all ways.

[Gayle]

Now this is an interesting one.

Does this mean that when granny passes on and doesn't require our granny flat under the house anymore. We will have to install a separate power supply before we can rent it to anyone?
I am sure there are ways to divvy up power and water useage between occupants in a reasonably fair way much as you would on a per head basis in a houseshare arrangement.
What happens in shopping centres between leasees. I am sure not all retail outlets have seperate meters for power and water and they seem to be able to work a system that is fair.

I would have thought that if a tenant signs up for a tenancy knowing the terms they are considered to have agreed to sticking with the responsibilities within that contract.

Regardless of the not knowing exactly how much water or power is used by who I don't think the LL should have to pay for anyone else showers or heating.

[Maccachic]

Just build it into the rent.

[flyernzl]

Gayle, the Residential Tenancies Act is quite clear. Regardless of any clauses that you may include in your own tenancy agreement you cannot impose water and electricity charges on a tenant unless there is a separate metered supply for that tenant. This means that there must be a utility-owned meter or a check meter installed for those charges to be legit.

You can try it on, but if the argument ends up in front of Tenancy Services any charges for unmetered supply will be disallowed regardless of what your actual agreement says.

I know because I've tried.

The reason why? Because its what the current Act says, fairness is not relevant.

Join us in working for the Act (and Watercare's terms of service) to be changed.

[Davo36]

Gayle,

In shopping malls, tenancies definitely have their own power meters, not sure about water, they would use very little, so probably not.

And if your granny passes away and you want to let your downstairs as a separate tenancy, you're up for HEAPS of changes and costs.

You sound like you're a practical person, who would assume these things can just easily be done. But they can't these days. There is red tape and nonsense rules everywhere, which is why rents are rising quickly.

[Perry]

Does this mean that when granny passes on and doesn't require our granny flat
under the house anymore, we will have to install a separate power supply before
we can rent it to anyone?

Yes, but it's not a big deal. You can use an appropriately
qualified electrician to install a check meter and there's no
need for any red tape. Yes, there will be a cost. One I'd
expect you could recover fairly rapidly.

The electricity is the easy one. A hot water cylinder is by
far the biggest cost and likely the most difficult task.

Then there's the local council, some of which have quite
different rules for relatives downstairs, as opposed to
tenants downstairs.

Then you have to live with the situation!

[Learning]

It would be easy to work out the electric bill, take a note of the check-meter reading once a month when the power bill arrives. The LL provides the actual power bill from the provider and then the tenant pays half the daily charge for the period and the cost per KW/h for the difference in check-meter readings including charges and taxes. If the LL is unwilling to provide the actual bill then refuse to pay. The hot water should be split with 2 separate cylinders.

If you're concerned that the check-meter is wired to appliances and/or water heater used by the other dwelling and you are paying for their power, switch it off. At a time convenient to you switch off your main switch for 3 or 4 hours. See if the water goes cold or if the neighbor comes knocking. It might be kind of neighborly to pre-warn them first.

We have a similar situation, shared electric and hot water. We came to an agreement before the tenancy started that the rent would include gas and electric. I have to be careful that I don't make a profit on it as don't want the extra questions from Mr Taxman so they pay half the daily charges and well under their share of usage. They don't take the pee too much, though they are much less anal about saving power than I am but with shared daily charges our overall bills are lower than separate ones would be anyway. It's a good flat, rent is below market rate, they have been happy with this set up for over 5 years now. I take the power and gas price increases on the chin until it's time for the rent review, when it works out at only $2 or $3 a week it's not worth the hassle.

[artemis]

Noodles - sounds like you may have problems with the LL when you move out. Make sure you take lots of dated pics showing the place has been left 'reasonably clean and tidy' in case they try to withhold bond. And make sure you are there at the final inspection and that the inspection form is correctly completed to mutual agreement.

[noodles]

Yeah there were definite problems with the landlord, we should have been more careful and asked more questions before taking the place on. This place is definitely setup illegally for 2 units, and our landlord was so obviously not keen to go to tenancy tribunal that we got let out of our fixed term with only a weeks notice given and they refunded us all of the electricity/water money we've paid since we moved in. We will do final inspection together, but I don't think we will have problems getting bond back, they just want us out now which is a pretty mutual feeling.

[mrsaneperson]

Yeah there were definite problems with the landlord, we should have been more careful and asked more questions before taking the place on. This place is definitely setup illegally for 2 units, and our landlord was so obviously not keen to go to tenancy tribunal that we got let out of our fixed term with only a weeks notice given and they refunded us all of the electricity/water money we've paid since we moved in. We will do final inspection together, but I don't think we will have problems getting bond back, they just want us out now which is a pretty mutual feeling.

So the landlord has refunded you all of the water & power he has charged you. So essentially you paid nothing for power & water. Do you feel ethical ???