So ... We own a leaky home!

[C Lord]

Hi all,

I've been browsing the site for a while now and there is certainly a wealthof information here so I thought I sound you guys out on a few things.

My partner and I own a three bedroom home on the North Shore of Auckland.We're in a pretty good area, close to the sea, good schools and so on, andthat's all great, but sadly every time it rains outside, it rains inside aswell! We purchased the property about 11 years ago and as first time buyers wewere shamefully ignorant of the necessary caution and numerous pitfalls thataccompany such an important financial decision.

Unlike many caught up in the "leaky home crisis" our home wasbuilt in 1986, a few years before the period that seems to be most notoriousfor dodgy weathertightness issues. Theexterior is (I’m told) an early Hardi Board monolithic plaster boardproduct. It is fixed directly to theinterior timber framing with no cavity system and there are various othertrademark leaky home features, like ... poor flashings, inadequate ground toclading clearance (in places, concrete has been layed directly againstcladding), a very poorly designed and constructed deck with a Butenol finishbase ... the list goes on.

The upshot of all this is that the house leaks! The deck has leaked for many years, butrecently we started seeing a huge volume of water leaking into our laundry andan adjacent bathroom. Outside these tworooms concrete has been layed directly against the cladding and to make mattersworse the ground level is higher than the floor level. When we realised we had a severe leak, wedecided to pull out some gib board to see what was going on behind the wall. Low and behold ... The timber framing isrotted so badly that in places, it is basically gone ... Decayed and compostedinto something very closely resembling top soil. There is a large amount of black mould andit’s obvious the damage is quite extensive.

So ... Over the past week or so, we met with 4 different people from variouscompanies/builders who deal with such things to talk about a repair. Each one said the same thing, that the housewould need a “full reclad” and that targeted repairs would not be possible asthe damage was too extensive.

We have since determined that the cost of a reclad, given our financialposition is most likely going to be impossible, so we are now trying to figureout how to salvage something from thesituation. The most obvious of course isto just fix the damage ourselves and attempt to sell the property. We don’t consider this an option though, as itwould be pretty morally reprehensible to pass this problem on to someone else... To say nothing of legal issues! Theonly option remaining seems to be to sell the house ‘as is’ and get what moneywe can for it. A couple of the companiesthat suggested recladding told us that if we were to do so, land value or closeto it is about all we should expect to get.

My question ... Does anybody have any better ideas or are we screwed? We made a mistake when we purchased our houseand we don’t want to make another one when we sell it.

Thanks

[Rizowz]

my condolences.... this story reads like something i'm about to get myself into - 1986 insulclad, decks over rooms leaking water (no membrane at all it seems! just tile/grouting straight on H1 and ply!), poor ground clearance, no cavity system, ya de ya.... infact it is even in a nice north shore suburb with sea views!

Anywho, the one difference is I basically have it under contract for land value only , effectively half price and the house is thrown in for free. I'm reasonably novice at buildings and what not, probably not unlike yourself. I am heading into this project with the knowledge that potentially I am going to rip down GIB and find something similar to you, but best case I'm going to be spending $30k not $300k (my invasive due dilligence so far has been pretty good).

My advice would be to try and fix it yourselves, as much as possible. you're unlikely to find a buyer these days that wouldnt inspect a house like that for moisture etc. You could probably flick it off as is but at a huge loss. Bearing in mind you bought it 11 years ago, you may not 'lose' compared to what you paid, but you'd still have lost a decade's growth/equity increase. I guess the best thing to do is to try and look at this situation in a positive light, you could teach yourself the basics of building! even if you tore down all the gib and ceilings, 'rolled up and removed' the carpet, you've made a start. This is ofcourse very difficult if it is the only home you have. Once all the interior is stripped out, you may well find it isnt 'as bad' as first thought. Remember, H1 Boron treated timber from the 80's can still rot as you now know, and in fact 'leaky home' era houses with untreated timber can actually stand up well, provided the timber can breathe. I would get the timber visually and density inspected once the gib is off so you know where you stand.

I guess in hindsight you probably would have done some remedial work like fixing the deck leaks earlier. Depending on the extent of damage, you may be able to waterproof the deck, get the roof checked etc etc, and then start remediating the rotten timber. The big dollars come in, as you say, when you need to re clad, which you might find you need to do if too much of the rotten timber is attached to the ply, which is ofcourse secured with nails hiding under the cladding. There are always ways around this, it just depends how tollerant you are of hard work and how creative you are. People get very afraid of plaster clad homes and for good reason, but there are always more than 1 ways to skin a cat; on the upside you could look at adding some extra flashings, these are attached in a similar way to replacing framing timber without a re-clad, just a bit of ingenuity; plaster can be fixed.

How is your cladding in general? Mint? or cracked/damaged?

One of the biggest costs in a job like this is labour, better roll up your sleeves!

Rizowz

[kapitibeanman]

My sympathy.

Rizowz has some good ideas.

You don't mention if you have kids. If you do, bailing out would hold extra attraction, if you could call it that.

It's a demanding situation. If you and your partner have the will and the stamina and have the house to yourselves, anything is possible. I think it depends on whether you are prepared to back yourselves to upskill and persevere and stay together too. I don't think I could myself.

Do you have any chance of creating extra income, to pay for extra expert help at crucial times if you decide to do it yourselves. Can you do a section at a time?

Have you met anyone that might be willing to project manage for you - free or cheaply - perhaps someone connected with your potential suppliers.

You will both need to be in one mind whatever you decide, or your relationship could become very stressed. The target of a warm, sound house is a great incentive, but don't risk your health in the process, will you?

[Bulldog]

Have you actually had the framing tested for moisture? There are many "experts" in building repair. I would suggest you spend the $400-500 it will cost to have an assessment done be a PROFESSIONAL. You can find a professional on www.buildingsurveyor.co.nz choose a weather tightness professional in your area & explain you are trying to salvage what you can. After getting the assessment ask for some options from them.

Getting opinions from builders is not the way to go, they are just opinions. There are consultants who specialise in this as well, they might give you a preliminary opinion based on a quick site visit, based on a couple of hours @ $150-200/hour. Cove Kinloch or Prendos are 2 of them. Its worth paying them a visit first to establish a relationship, consultants are pretty down to earth people so be bold & find out first hand.

[Craigrich]

So ..... we own a leaky home

Hi,
Kapitibeanman has the right idea (if you don't have kids). We owned a leaky home in Tauranga - the builing firm sold out, the inspector went into voluntry liquidation (and opened for business the next day, still employed by the Tauranga City Council) - so our solicitor said "Let it go to Mortgagee sale - They can take your home but not your knowledge". The best advise we ever had.
craigrich

[TheLiberalLeft]

My sympathies, too. I can offer no advice beyond the helpful replies above. Interesting that it was built as early as 1986. This might throw some peoples' assumptions about truly dodgy builds assunder.

[Wayne]

My sympathies, too. I can offer no advice beyond the helpful replies above. Interesting that it was built as early as 1986. This might throw some peoples' assumptions about truly dodgy builds assunder.

yes but it does have some extra nasties - like paths ABOVE floor level. The timber treatment only slows the rot - it was said long ago that treatment will just mean poorly built house issues show up way after the guarantee time has passed.

[TheLiberalLeft]

Indeed. Timber frames are not meant to be retaining walls.

[Wayne]

I don't have any experiance in fixing this sort of thing but you will need to removed the contributors (like paths above floor level) to ensure it doesn't come back. An unenviable situation and I feel for you.

[C Lord]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input. I gave the nice people (hopefully) at Prendos (thanks Bulldog) a call today and have someone coming tomorrow to give us an initial assesment. I also received the property file from the council, and it seems that the house was not built exactly to plan. I'm not too knowledgable on these things, but I guess it's no surprise that the architect didn't think the ground level should be above the floor level in places either. Interestingly, the house seems to have had a long history with drainage issues, with a history of the basement flooding and the like. Amazing what you can discover years and years after purchasing a property! Of course, this information was available to us BEFORE that as well, but hey, you live and learn I guess! Anyway, we will get an idea of the full extent of the problem via the building surveyors report at least. My feeling is that it probably won't be good as there ARE other obvious cracks and damage to the cladding.

My partner and I are in our mid/late 30s and we have no kids ... Just a surly pussy cat. Unfortunately we are not really in a position to attempt the work ourselves as we each have health issues which would make that impossible. It seems like the only way to go here might be to try and sell the place 'as is'.

Rizowz - Your purchase does indeed sound very much like what we may shortly have on the market. Getting land value would be a blow financially, but I'm struggling to think of any other way. I wouldn't be a total disaster though and pehaps it would ultimately be the best thing.
I'm getting quite close to being able to divorce myself from the fact that this is/was our 'home' and would very much like to make a decision as to wether we should stay or go based soley on common sense.

Thanks again all.

[One]

I realise it was years ago, but did you get a building report before you bought the house? And do you know if the original builders are still in business?

If so, be worth checking with a lawyer about whether you've got comeback against either of these, given that it wasn't built to plan.

[Rizowz]

One other tip for you: I can make a personal recommendation regarding building consultants: Wise Consultants Ltd. They're based in the Wairau valley area. http://www.wiseconsultants.co.nz/ theres a little bit of info there that me be of use and makes for good reading. Givey Terry Henshaw or one of the other guys a call (he started the Henshaw group who do all the Housing NZ maintenance) I was talking to Mr Henshaw today (the one in the photo on the main page) who incidentally lives basically next door to this place I have under contract. 'Leaky buildings' are a bit of a sore point for him, he said he gets frustrated by mis-diagnosis and rip off artists doing things that dont necessarily need doing etc when it comes to rectifying leaky building syndrome, and will try and avoid a reclad at all costs. There are a few examples of moisture readings gone wrong on their page, worth a look. I note you mentioned you've already had a few people out to see the place, if their company is one of those who has inspected the house it may well be a serious issue.
Also I would check out these guys, Building Consultants http://www.bc.org.nz/ They seem to take a real level-headded approach and their website actually has a fair bit of information on it, well worth a read through.

Remember you might spend even a few thousand getting 10 opinions, but it only takes one of those to save you hundreds of thousands.

[Winston001]

Hi guys,

Amazing what you can discover years and years after purchasing a property! .

My partner and I are in our mid/late 30s and we have no kids ... Just a surly pussy cat. Unfortunately we are not really in a position to attempt the work ourselves as we each have health issues which would make that impossible. It seems like the only way to go here might be to try and sell the place 'as is'.

I'm getting quite close to being able to divorce myself from the fact that this is/was our 'home' and would very much like to make a decision as to wether we should stay or go based soley on common sense.

Thanks again all.

You have my utmost respect. You demonstrate courage and wisdom. Get the reports suggested and don't make any hasty decisions until you've had time to digest the whole story.

You may very well be correct that quitting the property is the best choice having regard to your health, mental well-being, and relationship. These problems can be harsh on people. But on the other hand there may be some simple solutions available.

You are in your thirties which may feel middleaged to you but trust me, you have decades ahead to recover and smile.

[C Lord]

Thanks guys,

Well, we got the 'initial inspection' report from Prendos in the mail today and as feared ... Not good news! But, not exactly unexpected either. We had been given a few ball park figures for the cost of a reclad from the various companies that came around to look at and assess the problems with the cladding, and the report agrees that they were in the right approximate area .. Around $280,000 to $320,000 for a full reclad, which everyone seems to agree is necessary.

This just isn't financially viable for us at all and when you do the numbers, given the cost of remediation, finance to remediate and allowing a safety margin in case the work goes over the estimated cost, the work is very clearly not worth doing. Its pretty difficult to get my head around the fact that the property is only as valuable as the land it's standing on, but that's the reality.

So ... Anybody know any good lawyers? I've read a couple of really scary articles lately about people selling leaky properties who have had legal troubles down the road even after they disclosed all known faults with the house prior to sale. Our aim is to be completely honest and disclose everything.

Winston - Yes, I do feel positively elderly! It's certainly a blow financially, but hopefully not a complete disaster. It all depends on what we can get for the property. Land values are pretty good in our area, but I suppose it all depends on what someone is willing to pay!

[One]

My sympathies to you. What a grotty position to find yourselves in.

How big is your land, what's the zoning like, and how good is your financing position? Given that all the value left is in the land, I'm wondering if you could increase that value by bowling the house and building multiple units in its place. You might be able to find a joint venture partner to help with finance and/or development.