Disappointing show by APIA

[The_Dog]

All,

Please see below an e-mail trail of disappointment regarding my dealing with the APIA. I think it’s pretty self explanatory. You might like to read from the bottom to the top to get the chronology.

I kept my word by posting it. It’s a shame APIA can’t keep theirs.

The Dog
(Stuart Ingram)

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: 22 March 2009 21:51
To: Miss X
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal



Hello Miss X,

On the 15th of February, you told me my NZ Property Investor magazine was in the post. I have not received it, although I have received the APIA newsletter, which proves to me a) APIA knows my correct address and b) the postman knows where my front door is.

On the 13th February, I promised if the situation with my mag subscription was not addressed, I would post the entire e-mail string on a public forum. As the APIA Board members have not had the courtesy to respond, I have no option.

I would like to make a few points in parting.

1) If, in October 2008 when I first missed the NZPI mag you had said to me “Dear Mr Ingram, we have made a mistake, could you please pay the short-fall” I would have said “no problem, and thank you for letting me know”. But instead, you decided to stop posting the mag with no notification.
2) If APIA November correspondence took the form of an apology, I would have been happy to pay the money.
3) If you had of honored your commitment of e-mail 26 Nov 2008 23:19 I would have been happy. But you retracted it 4 minutes later.
4) If the APIA Board members had responded promptly (or indeed at all), as you requested of them 27 Nov 2008, I would have been happy.
5) Where are the magazines you ordered for me 22nd Of December?

The bottom line is, APIA are in breach of Contract. This entire sorry situation could have been avoided with just a little communication, common courtesy, and professional behavior. I regret to say APIA is void of all 3 attributes.

As the majority of NZ rental properties are in Auckland, the APIA should be flying the flag for the NZPIF, but instead the association has been characterised by back biting and infighting ever since the last election. In these times of tight credit, the requirement for strong representation and leadership has never been greater, which makes the poor performance of the APIA all the more disappointing.

I understand why the APIA is strapped for cash, firstly members are leaving in droves, and secondly money is being spent on legal fees for a dispute that is of the Board Members own making. Both the dwindling membership and legal battles could have been avoided had a little professionalism, communication and common courtesy been applied. It’s comes as no surprise those are the exact elements missing from my experience of the APIA.

It does strike me, after speaking to other property investors that have left the APIA, that there is going to be no one left to vote out the existing Board. Given the lack of professionalism displayed, I guess it’s out of the question they will stand down. I therefore despair for the future of the APIA.

So, farewell Miss X. I doubt we will correspond again. Please feel free to use the remainder of my APIA subscription however you see fit. Please cancel my subscription and remove me from your mailing list.

Regards
Stuart


-----Original Message-----
From: Miss X
Sent: 15 February 2009 18:07
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Stuart

I had already posted off your February magazine to you I believe Wednesday last week – due to Waitangi Day I had not been able to get spare copies of the magazine until Tuesday last week hence the delay. Since your postal address is in the UK I would imagine that would take a while.

Should you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind Regards,
Miss X

From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Friday, 13 February 2009 11:33 a.m.
To: Miss X
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hello Miss X,

Please note this is not aimed at you, but rather the APIA Board Members.

It’s now 6 weeks since I last heard from you and over 10 weeks since The Board Member were to consider my situation.

As I said from the outset, the reason I pay my subscription to the APIA was to support a supposedly profession body providing a voice for the property investor community. You can probably guess, I’m extremely disappointed that the Board has not had the professionalism nor common courtesy to respond.

I’m loathed to leave the situation here, as such incompetence should not go unchecked. If I do not receive a response by close of business Monday 16th February (NZ time), I will post this entire e-mail on a public forum.

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Miss X
Sent: 22 December 2008 03:31
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Yes Stuart – I am still waiting to hear from them but in the mean time have ordered you the magazines.

Kind Regards,
Miss X


From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Monday, 22 December 2008 1:14 p.m.
To: Miss X
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Dear Miss X,

Are the Board going to offer me the courtesy of a response?

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Miss X
Sent: 27 November 2008 22:28
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Noted
Your case has been forward to the appropriate persons and hopefully you will receive a more considered response.

Kind Regards,
Miss X


From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Friday, 28 November 2008 11:29 a.m.
To: Miss X
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Dear Miss X,
Whether one can "construe" the exchange of emails (4th April 200 are the initial or critical acceptance and offer in this case is perhaps academic in that there is no doubt a contract in place, I paid money to the APIA and they accepted and acknowledged a contract by sending me the magazine. Stopping the magazine is a breach of that contract.
Furthermore, whether you have any 'internal' authority within the APIA is completely irrelevant. If you (or your predecessor, Miss Y) make agreements (whether verbal or written) with the Public as a representative of the APIA, a contract (under common law) is formed and binding.
Despite the aforementioned, I don't think this matter will be resolved with legal banter. I'm more than happy for the Board to decide on the way forward, and look forward to a well considered response. The APIA often talk about raising the professionalism amongst NZ landlords, and here is an opportunity for them to lead by example.
Yours sincerely
Stuart Ingram.
-----Original Message-----
From: Miss X
Sent: 26 November 2008 23:23
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Stuart

With regard to my previous reply, please kindly disregard as this is an issue for the board members to decide on and I am in no position to make an offer and acceptance on behalf of APIA, neither was Miss Y previously acting in the capacity of the office manager. Apologies.

Kind Regards,
Miss X


From: Miss X
Sent: 26 November 2008 23:19
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Stuart

Totally understand the issue at hand and sincere apologies for what has been perceived as ‘administrative blunders after blunders’.

Looking at the email thread that you had kindly forward through, I appreciate that it can be construed as an offer and acceptance with requisite consideration passed over. Both myself (office administration) and David Baty (CEO) had only started our posts with APIA in October. Unfortunately our predecessors had not brought the special arrangements made between you and APIA through them to our attention. I appreciate that you do not enjoy any membership benefits apart from the magazines as I am sure you can appreciate the nature of this organisation and our need to cut costs. But as there has been a valid agreement made prior to our office, I am happy to continue honouring it. I will make contact with the magazine house and ask that they send you the November and December magazines in the post asap.

Kind Regards,
Miss X


From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Thursday, 27 November 2008 12:12 p.m.
To: Miss X
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal
Importance: High

Dear Miss X,

You will see on the attached e-mail, when renewing my APIA membership, that I specifically asked (4th April 200 if the renewal fee included for postage to the UK, and the reply (also 4th April 200 was explicit in stating that postage to the UK was included. You will note the e-mail chain then continues with the APIA losing my payment.

The most annoying aspect of this fiasco is no attempt was made to contact me and explain why you had decided to arbitrarily terminate my magazine supply.

I joined the APIA to support what I was told was a professional body campaigning for the NZ landlord. Being in the UK, I can not access any of the monthly meeting, the product or service discounts, and the only benefit I receive(d) is the magazine. Unfortunately, my experience of the APIA has been nothing but administrative blunder after blunder. This is not the first time I have not received the mag.

There is offer and acceptance as detailed in the attached e-mail, therefore we have a contract. My membership, at the agreed (and clarified) cost, includes one years supply of the NZ Property Investor Magazine, and I expect you to honour that contract.

Yours sincerely
Stuart Ingram

-----Original Message-----
From: Miss X
Sent: 25 November 2008 23:40
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Stuart

Unfortunately you have not been receiving the magazines because your postal address is outside of New Zealand. For every magazine we send out to you the distribution company charges us $17.00. So far we have been bearing that cost but because APIA is a not for profit organisation, we are unfortunately not in a position to foot that cost any longer.

Including the magazines you are missing (November), I have worked out that you are owed 8 more magazines until your membership runs out at the end of June next year. If you would still like to receive these magazines, we will have to pass the postage cost onto you (which is NZD$136.00). If you could give me your credit card details to debit that cost from then we can be in a position to ensure that you keep receiving your magazines until your subscription runs out.



Kind Regards,
Miss X

From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2008 10:40 a.m.
To: Miss X
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Miss X,

The London address is correct, because that’s where I am! Please ensure the post code SE16 7BN is clearly used as that is the key to correct postage in Britain.

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Miss X
Sent: 24 November 2008 19:51
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Stuart

Thank you for your email.

Please let me first introduce myself, my name is Miss X and I am the new Miss Y since two weeks ago.

I wonder if you are able to update your postal address for us? We seem to only have a London address?


Kind Regards,
Miss X

From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Sunday, 23 November 2008 2:53 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Miss Y, me again.

I haven’t received the NZ property mag again this month. I see on the net it’s called “Avoid the burn” and was issued on the 3rd November. Could you please look into it.

Kind Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia
Sent: 10 August 2008 22:36
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Stuart,
The post code is on the list that I send to the publishers I think their computer system must be dropping it off. I will email them and make sure it is kept there.

Kind Regards,
Miss Y


-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2008 9:13 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Miss Y,

I returned from Holiday on Sunday to find July's copy in the post, thank you.

And miracle of miracles, August's copy arrived today, only 2 days after issue date!!

I think I might have discovered the reason things are going missing, the post cost is not included in my address. Could you please ensure it's added in.

Stuart Ingram
Bla bla bla

United Kingdom

Many thanks.

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia
Sent: 24 July 2008 20:55
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Stuart,
I will send one from here.

Miss Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Friday, 25 July 2008 5:20 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal


Hi Miss Y,

Sorry to bother you again, but the mag has not arrived yet. I think it
might be officially lost in action.

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 14 July 2008 21:13
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal


Hi Stuart,
Your definitely on the mailing list. The magazine is sent from the
publishers on the first Monday of the month. The first Monday was 7th
of July, given that your in the UK I wouldn't have thought it would have
been with you just yet. Let me know if its not their in the next 5
days.

Miss Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2008 5:46 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal


Hi Miss Y,

I received the June issue some weeks ago, but no sign of the July issue
yet.
Could you please check all systems are go?

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia
Sent: 17 June 2008 21:35
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Stuart,
I've started it in July but will post you a copy of the June Magazine
now.

Miss Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2008 8:41 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal


Hi Miss Y,

I don't mind my membership starting in June if it means I get the June
issue
of NZPI. It's difficult for me to pop down the bookshop and collect a
copy.

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia
Sent: 17 June 2008 21:30
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal


Hi Stuart,
Have found it. My accounting system had been away with the accountants
for the last 2 months. Your payment would have been the one we couldn't
account for. I will start your membership from July as half of June has
already gone.

Kind Regards,
Miss Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2008 8:30 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi there.

I paid for it by electronic transfer (internet) from my ASB account
xx-xxxx-xxxxxx-xx, on the 12th May. I would have put 'ingram' in the
payment details.

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia
Sent: 17 June 2008 21:13
To: 'Stuart Ingram'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Stuart,
I haven't received your renewal or payment. How did you pay for this?

Kind Regards,
Miss Y


-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2008 4:08 a.m.
To: 'Admin @ Apia'
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Miss Y,

I paid this on the 12th May, but have not jut received this months NZPI
mag. Could you please confirm my membership has been extended?

Regards
Stuart

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia Sent: 04 April 2008 01:11
To: Stuart Ingram
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Stuart,
This does include postage for sending the magazine to the UK.

Thanks,
Miss Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Friday, 4 April 2008 4:02 a.m.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: APIA Membership Renewal

Please confirm these fees include for sending the NZ property mag to the
UK.
Regards
Stuart

>----Original Message----
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Apr 2, 2008 9:50:11 PM
> To: Stuart Ingram
> Subj: APIA Membership Renewal



Dear Stuart


Thank you for belonging to the Auckland Property Investors Association



The APIA Board would like to thank you for being part of the
Association. Just another reminder that your membership expires next
month on 5/31/2008. To continue receiving your magazine and other APIA
benefits, we would like to invite you to renew for the following year.
We have many great initiatives planned, including many speakers at our
monthly keynote meetings, which will be free to all paid up members.
I would like to remind you of our member discounts which include Dulux,
Placemakers and Veda Advantage (previously Baycorp). Veda Advantage
provide massive savings on credit checks, property and auto checks with
APIA membership covering the usual Veda Advantage membership fee of
$225.00 per year.
Consider the potential real savings that you can receive from membership
of APIA:

Benefits Annual Value
10 Monthly meetings $ 400.00
2 Guest passes $ 80.00
12 copies of NZ Property Magazine $ 102.00
Tax deductible membership fee $ 74.00
Veda Advantage membership
> (formally Baycorp Advantage) $ 205.00
Rebates & Discounts $ 200.00
Discounts on Seminars $ 1,200.00
Total potential benefit $ 2,261.00

These savings do not include the many other discounts available from
other companies or the $40.00 paid to the NZ Property Investors
Federation, who lobby nationally on our behalf and seek extra discounts
to ensure we can keep our costs down to a minimum.
If you would like to renew your APIA membership now, please reply to
this email and fill out the following form by deleting unrequired
options and including your payment details. Alternatively you may print
the form and post or fax it.


Kind regards



Sue Tierney


President,
Auckland Property Investors Association

Send to:
Auckland Property Investors
Association, P.O. Box 10-104, Dominion Rd, Auckland.

Fax to: 09-815 8641

or reply by email (delete those options that don't apply)
Individual ($225) Couple ($325) Business ($618.75)
* My membership type has changed. Please send a replacement Invoice.
I'm paying by:
* cheque
* Visa
* Mastercard
Internet banking
> ASB account #: 12-3067-0247714-000. Include name & phone number
Card No:
.................................................. .......................
..
.....................

Name on Card:............................................. .........
Exp.Date: ........../..........

Signature:........................................ ......................
.......................

[outspoken]

Bummer dude,

On the bright side, now you can spend the $225 on Car mags or Playboy.

[Keys]

Just sent a link to this thread to the CPIA with a comment or two.

[Rolf]

I had trouble renewing in November 2008 as well. Didn't hear from them for ages after having paid via bank transfer and didn't receive any mags either. But it was finally sorted out after 'only' a couple of months.

Have to say I've been highly amused by the ongoing infighting, and those emails issued by the various 'fractions' of the board last year were just hilarious. A public display of total incompetence!

[CJ]

I had issues but that was only because I didn't notice their fax number wasn't working. Once I got that sorted, I had no issues. Magazines started turning up (they even did the change of address that went with the renewal).

[Dean@Massiveaction]

I gave up resubscribing in the end, very similar to Dog. Join the traders instead and get the mag through them!!

[The_Dog]

Thanks Keys, I was going to send the link but re-read your message and realised you have already done it. It would be good if the APIA Board could be ousted (by the Central body) as they are bringing the entire organisation into disrepute. Auckland is the powerhouse of the entire NZ economy, and as such should be well represented. Not run by people that can't even grasp the very basics of communication, even after being given every opportunity.

Since writing my e-mail I have read other threads involving the APIA, and a common theme seems to be poor money management. For me, it was never about the money, it was about being extended the courtesy of a response, but the APIA didn’t seem to twig to that. It does worry me that an organisation that is supposed to be supporting property investors building wealth has such a poverty mentality. Tight financial control of (rental) income and expenses are key skills for a property investor, and leadership should display those attributes.



Dean, I have been to the PropertyPlus (Traders) site and can't see any reference to getting the mag through them. Is it an option?

TD

[essence]

You could always go straight to the publisher and order it from them.

[The_Dog]

Yes, I was on the publishers site today however they don't have an item (subscription) for overseas buyers, although they do mention the overseas price. I can't work out how to clear checkout at the increased price.

Is nothing ever simple?

I'll have to e-mail them.

TD

[Keys]

Yes, I was on the publishers site today however they don't have an item (subscription) for overseas buyers, although they do mention the overseas price. I can't work out how to clear checkout at the increased price.

Is nothing ever simple?

I'll have to e-mail them.

TD

Send it to me, I'll forward it to you.

[HelenB]

Some People...

Dear Stuart Ingram (Dog)

I think that you are being selfish here. You have admitted to leaving New Zealand and being in London. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that posting a magazine to London, UK, is more expensive than posting a magazine to somewhere in Auckland, NZ! I don't understand why you think you are so special and entitled to receiving a magazine at vast extra cost to a not for profit association.

APIA said:

For every magazine we send out to you the distribution company charges us $17.00. So far we have been bearing that cost but because APIA is a not for profit organisation, we are unfortunately not in a position to foot that cost any longer.

That is surely a reasonable reason. Yes, APIA probably could have told you that, but they must have been irrate at you taking the mickey out of the system and costing them so much money with your personal overseas postage bill burdening fellow members! I am not impressed with you Stuart. My son in law was an APIA member and when he went to London with my daughter he was polite enough to email apia to let them know of this change (I think that is a membership requirement anyway Stuart) - they decided to cancel his membership while he was away and now he is back he is also a very happy APIA member.

As an APIA member myself and knowing that we are in a recession that is obviously going to affect property investor associations around the country, I think that if you had any integrity and were a good person that you would refund APIA for all the times that they had to waste $17 posting your magazine to London.

All I can say is some people... Unbelievable.

[Dean@Massiveaction]

Helen the point is APIA's behaviour and handling of the issue, not the money.
I similarly spent countless emails trying to get my membership sorted out and in the end just gave up.

There are clearly significant admin issues.

[HelenB]

Ok I understand I think - why don't you call APIA. I am looking at their website and their number is (09) 360 2376. I am sure that APIA would want an investor like you as a member Dean. It would be great to network with you at the end of APIA meetings amongst other significant investors. You never know - you may learn something too.

[Heg]

HelenB
Read the entire post before making stupid remarks. APIA confirmed that postage to the UK was included. See here

-----Original Message-----
From: Admin @ Apia Sent: 04 April 2008 01:11
To: Stuart Ingram
Subject: RE: APIA Membership Renewal

Hi Stuart,
This does include postage for sending the magazine to the UK.

Thanks,
Miss Y

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ingram
Sent: Friday, 4 April 2008 4:02 a.m.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: APIA Membership Renewal

Please confirm these fees include for sending the NZ property mag to the
UK.
Regards
Stuart

[sarahd]

It does seem a bit over the top slamming APIA over a missing magazine though. Isn't it just an admin error.